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  1. Beorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 2:48am


     Style: TKD, judo, MT noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Songshan
    I just wanted to offer a bit of insight as a current 13 year law enforcement officer in Texas (all 13 years in street patrol).

    Any police officer has had a "oh ****" moment in their career whether they wrecked a patrol car
    No.... they haven't. And the fact that you have might explain why you think he is qualified to teach.

    On a further note, your thought that just because he has had the training for all these jobs he is amazing is so naive its ridiculous. That is like saying a lieutenant in the army is just as capable as a colonel because they have both been through OCS or ROTC. Oh wait, one has years of experience and is capable of leading whole regiments, and one can't be trusted without an NCO to hold his hand. Problem is, Wagner washed out of all of these organizations before he gained the experience that makes someone capable of claiming expertise in the area. It would be like going to a martial arts school, showing that you can do all the moves for their BB rank, but leaving before they have a chance to spar to see if you can apply it. Do you think that person is qualified?
  2. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 2:59am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Songshan
    There are far more Mcdojos' out there killing martial arts than what Jim Wagner is doing.
    I would like to focus on this one quote. Just because there are worse criminal out there, doesn't mean we should just ignore all the other criminals. Just because there are worse frauds out there, doesn't mean we should ignore the "gray area" ones.

    Honestly, what is so hard about the plain jane truth. No additives, no preservatives, just the truth. It would be easy to just say he did this, and he did that, and that would be that. The problem here, seems to be just a little bit too much colorful "resume padding" if you will. Once you dissect it, it starts to become apparent.

    I've spoken to my department manager about many of the people who come in and interview for a job. He tells me some of the stuff they put on their resumes. It surprises him that they think they won't be called on it. The thing is, his resume (which is his advertisement of himself) is being called into question.

    Now, all he needs to do is just put up or shut up. It isn't that hard of a thing to do. The problem is the fact of what is gained and what is lost. If his credentials are suspect enough to cause, well, suspicion in his abilities then he probably has a lot of loose. He has somewhat of a status in martial arts circles as well as the fact that he is probably making a lot of money with his seminars and DVD's. If his stuff is together, he has nothing to worry about, if it isn't, there will be problems. This is one of the reasons why there is yet to be a straight answer. Everything has been worded enough in such a way as to make the verification process very tedious.

    Honestly man (or woman), it shouldn't be that hard to just say, this is what I'm teaching, these are my credentials for teaching it.
  3. Songshan is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 3:35am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shaolin Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn
    No.... they haven't. And the fact that you have might explain why you think he is qualified to teach.

    On a further note, your thought that just because he has had the training for all these jobs he is amazing is so naive its ridiculous. That is like saying a lieutenant in the army is just as capable as a colonel because they have both been through OCS or ROTC. Oh wait, one has years of experience and is capable of leading whole regiments, and one can't be trusted without an NCO to hold his hand. Problem is, Wagner washed out of all of these organizations before he gained the experience that makes someone capable of claiming expertise in the area. It would be like going to a martial arts school, showing that you can do all the moves for their BB rank, but leaving before they have a chance to spar to see if you can apply it. Do you think that person is qualified?
    Yes...they have. I have never met an officer that has not done something wrong (I am not talking criminal here) while on the job. This can range from having an accident (because you drive 8 hours a day) or do something "silly" like forget to give a driver's license back after a traffic stop. Things happen and I was referring to the post where someone said they spoke to so and so who recalled Jim Wagner hitting a door of another police vehicle after a chase. I am saying that he is qualified to teach based on his experiences not for doing something wrong.

    I never said he was "amazing". I said he has received a lot of extensive training can permit him to teach the things he does. I am talking about mostly his law enforcement training and military training in the way of defensive tactics/firearm training. As far as the facts been presented here in this thread Jim Wagner did not "wash out" any of his jobs. He left on his own will. You keep forgetting to consider what it took to reach the level of job he held. This includes successfully completing a police academy, military boot camp and training for the Fed Air Marshalls. Just because he resigned from his posts doesn't mean he "washed out". Your post is a prime example of how so many want to dismiss personal experience over nonesense or how Jim Wagner is a a fraud because he doesn't have a black belt with a certificate with a high profile instructor signature on it. Some of you are trying to pry open Jim Wagners military and police personnel file for your liesure but you will not get very far because those are private. The best answer you get will be yes he was employed here or no he wasn't. Please don't take parts of my statements and twist them around to suit your ideas or put words in my mouth.
  4. Songshan is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 3:56am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shaolin Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by datdamnmachine
    I would like to focus on this one quote. Just because there are worse criminal out there, doesn't mean we should just ignore all the other criminals. Just because there are worse frauds out there, doesn't mean we should ignore the "gray area" ones.

    Honestly, what is so hard about the plain jane truth. No additives, no preservatives, just the truth. It would be easy to just say he did this, and he did that, and that would be that. The problem here, seems to be just a little bit too much colorful "resume padding" if you will. Once you dissect it, it starts to become apparent.

    I've spoken to my department manager about many of the people who come in and interview for a job. He tells me some of the stuff they put on their resumes. It surprises him that they think they won't be called on it. The thing is, his resume (which is his advertisement of himself) is being called into question.

    Now, all he needs to do is just put up or shut up. It isn't that hard of a thing to do. The problem is the fact of what is gained and what is lost. If his credentials are suspect enough to cause, well, suspicion in his abilities then he probably has a lot of loose. He has somewhat of a status in martial arts circles as well as the fact that he is probably making a lot of money with his seminars and DVD's. If his stuff is together, he has nothing to worry about, if it isn't, there will be problems. This is one of the reasons why there is yet to be a straight answer. Everything has been worded enough in such a way as to make the verification process very tedious.

    Honestly man (or woman), it shouldn't be that hard to just say, this is what I'm teaching, these are my credentials for teaching it.
    Let me take a moment to explain my quote. Everyone is saying how much Jim Wagner is a fraud based on what his credentials are shown to be. A criminal is a criminal a fraud is a fraud period. If they can't pick apart his resume then they pick apart his "martial arts" (using the term loosely). Just as there countless other self percieved defensive tactic, MMA, self defense systems where the instructor has not even received any type of specialized training.

    Personally, I feel he has put up his credentials on his web site and attempted to answer the questions raised. Jim Wagner has said this is what I am teaching and these are my credentials. The answers that are out there apparently are not good enough for the masses. You are also asking him to open his law enforcement personnel file for the public to see. Sorry, but those are private and should be kept that way because you never know who would view that and if they had other motives for acquiring sensitive information. Those of you in law enforcement can understand that....those that are not probably wouldn't.
  5. Lebell is offline
    Lebell's Avatar

    Just waiting for the paperboy.

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 5:41am

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Songshan, you've read this thread right?

    Don't you agree that mr. Wagner at least 'misrepresented' himself?
  6. Beorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 8:12am


     Style: TKD, judo, MT noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Songshan
    Yes...they have.
    if it makes you feel better thinking other officers go around crashing their cars all the time too, you go ahead and think that. it won't make it any more true, or you any less of a failure.

    I never said he was "amazing". I said he has received a lot of extensive training can permit him to teach the things he does. I am talking about mostly his law enforcement training and military training in the way of defensive tactics/firearm training. As far as the facts been presented here in this thread Jim Wagner did not "wash out" any of his jobs. He left on his own will. You keep forgetting to consider what it took to reach the level of job he held. This includes successfully completing a police academy, military boot camp and training for the Fed Air Marshalls. Just because he resigned from his posts doesn't mean he "washed out". Your post is a prime example of how so many want to dismiss personal experience over nonesense or how Jim Wagner is a a fraud because he doesn't have a black belt with a certificate with a high profile instructor signature on it. Some of you are trying to pry open Jim Wagners military and police personnel file for your liesure but you will not get very far because those are private. The best answer you get will be yes he was employed here or no he wasn't. Please don't take parts of my statements and twist them around to suit your ideas or put words in my mouth.
    Oh....THATS what it is. And here I thought it was because Wagner was going around claiming experience he doesn't have. Damn, you caught me. He claimed to be swat, he wasn't. He claimed to be in the foreign dignitary protection/blowjob/whatever group, from the sounds of it that means precisisely nothing. He was an air marshal that sat and read magazines on an airplane....for less than a year, and counts every time he did that as a COUNTER-TERROR mission, which according to those on this site knowledgeable about these things, is the wrong term anyways. As for the H2H training that he would have recieved for these posts, the military taught **** when he would have been in. Police forces, at least the ones I have been able to sit in on, have just enough H2H training to get them killed if they ever fought anyone not throwing haymakers or grabbing them by the shoulders. I cannot comment on the H2H training he may have recieved as an air marshal, but I am starting to see a pattern....
  7. raylawley is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 9:20am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Edit: unsure if the site's been updated recently, but there seems to be a significant amount of photographic (and otherwise) evidence of Jim's time as a police officer and then member of a SWAT team.

    Also, it seems he began teaching MA before he had any experience with law enforcement at all.


    It's really interesting for me to watch the videos earlier in this thread; because the school at which I train runs a reality-based self-defence class based around the Jim Wagner system (though I don't know whether we're directly affiliated anymore) and I've never seen any knife defence or H2H material like that before.

    The only thing which comes close was the weapon control and bridge-and-roll in one of the videos.


    Then again, my experience is far less than extensive, and especially in this area, I don't feel I'm either experienced enough nor impartial enough to contribute anything else.
    Last edited by raylawley; 12/22/2008 9:34am at .
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 11:16am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by raylawley
    Edit: unsure if the site's been updated recently, but there seems to be a significant amount of photographic (and otherwise) evidence of Jim's time as a police
    Read the thread. All of this has been addressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Songshan

    Personally, I feel he has put up his credentials on his web site and attempted to answer the questions raised. Jim Wagner has said this is what I am teaching and these are my credentials. The answers that are out there apparently are not good enough for the masses. You are also asking him to open his law enforcement personnel file for the public to see. Sorry, but those are private and should be kept that way because you never know who would view that and if they had other motives for acquiring sensitive information. Those of you in law enforcement can understand that....those that are not probably wouldn't.
    Yes, when asked directly, he chose not to answer. Then suddenly when it got to hot, he starts adding things to his website recently. Recently. So no, this isn't some altruistic guy putting his bio out there getting dinged. This is a guy that refused to answer any questions, canceled a seminar, added an angry letter to his webpage and then decided to answer a few questions.
  9. Songshan is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 12:58pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shaolin Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jingle Lebells
    Songshan, you've read this thread right?

    Don't you agree that mr. Wagner at least 'misrepresented' himself?
    I would say for marketing purposes and for the purposes of promoting his own system he has highlighted what he feels are the high points of his career. Any business owner would boast their credentials.
  10. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2008 1:26pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Jim gets himself photographed wearing SWAT gear and he served as a LOGISTICS officer for a part time SWAT team in Costa Mesa, California. When I talked to Phil Hartman, a member of this team, he indicated Jim never conducted any raids or did any sniping. But Jim holds himself out as a expert in SWAT tactics.

    He claims that he went on about 140 counter terror missions which turn out to be flights which he guarded for the Air Marshals with maybe two incidents, neither of which involved life or death. He couldn't say "force protection" which would have been the honest discription.

    He was in the regular army by his own account for perhaps seven months and now he's qualified to train army troops?

    It is my opinion that he didn't just highlight experiences, instead he padded and misleadingly exaggerated his past experiences and credentials.

    I do have a question. If Jim could convince Dan I to let him go out on a date with his daughter, Why couldn't he convince Dan to sign an instructor certificate for him? Hmm, maybe he just wasn't ready to teach JKD.
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