Jim Wagner's military, police, counter-terror creds in question.

**Lebell** · Posted On: 10/19/2008 10:14am

Originally Posted by Wagner

For example, before I even started training the federal and regional police trainers of the Netherlands I was told by a police chief that they had investigated me through Interpol to verify my background. Since I was one of the only foreigner to step foot in their new Amsterdam training facility they wanted to be absolutely sure of my credentials. The Dutch are very detail oriented people.

After training literally all of Amsterdam Police Department tactics and defensive tactics instructors in my Level 1 courses at Mike Constantinides’ Reality-Based school (Mike is the Reality-Based Personal Protection Director of Holland) in Huizen, I was invited to teach at the police training facility. After a two-day intensive course for all of the tactics and defensive tactics instructors in every jurisdiction in Holland my host Gerard (last name withheld) said to me as we were walking to the main entrance after we had finished the last class, “Jim, you’re in.”

I said, “What do you mean?”

He continued, “You’re in. You are one of us. We don’t let just anyone teach us. Not even many Dutch instructors. There are many people who want to train us, but we don’t let them.”

I turned to him, quite flattered, and said, “Great! Thank you.”

Their gratitude is probably why I ended up teaching members of their top counterterrorist and bodyguards of the Queen’s Protection Detail.

These guys are not just a bunch of “fooled” people. Their government spends a lot of money every year to send their top instructors to any program they want to check out. They have gone to Tony Blauer courses, FBI courses in the States, Krav Maga courses, BJJ courses, and anything new that comes along. The reason why they have incorporated a lot of my stuff into the official Dutch police curriculum is because, in their words, “It is simple, it works, and it is real.” In fact, they had me teach their instructors my Jim Wagner Use-of-Force Ladder explaining the various levels of force because they said that my graphic, which I designed and which was the first civilian self-defense use-of-force continuum in the world, was easier to explain and more enlightening than the Dutch police model. At first I thought they were joking when they first asked me, but they were serious. I was honored.

ok a couple of things.
over the years ive trained with dutch police guys and mr wagner makes it seem more then it is.
ofcourse he was checked out by interpol, if he had a criminal record etc.
they do that with everyone.

they dont let anyone teach the policeforce here?

i beg to differ.

**raylawley** · Posted On: 10/19/2008 10:24am

The only concern I'd had thus far has been the misleading use of the Sergeant rank and the rather extreme use of advertising. But then again, I've seen some fairly horrendous MA advertisements around the place; even for places which, as far as I with my limited experience can tell, offer practical and enjoyable training.

But after having read through this thread, I'm profoundly disturbed; I may have to resort to the age-old technique of asking Matt or even Jim (if I attend his next seminar) what the deal is.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 10/19/2008 10:39am

So, in other words, he types a ton of words and still won't answer questions.

It started as “Jim Wagner was never a sergeant in the military” to “Yes, Jim Wagner is a military sergeant, but he was not on the SWAT team” and all sorts of accusations in between.

Where does he answer this?

Blitz magazine placed me on the cover a few months ago because the Jim Wagner Reality-Based system is a global system that is growing.

So? Frank Dux made the covers of magazines.
I see no answers but, a great sales pitch for RBSD.

Maybe it is just me but, if you are going to bring something up, address the issue.

Instead he gives us a RBSD commercial.

Don't do the blue font stuff again.

Thank you.

Okay one more post.

I read that longish letter on sport blitz.

Anyone want to explain this? Military and LEOs only:
http://www.sportzblitz.net/Forum/top...TOPIC_ID=13445

Originally Posted by Supposedly Jim Wagner

Although I have had extensive training by the United States Marine Corps, and I have taught many defensive tactics and tactics courses to various Marine units, I have never claimed to be a United States Marine.

As a civilian, can I get equal training as an enlisted Marine?

**datdamnmachine** · Posted On: 10/19/2008 5:45pm

Originally Posted by It is Fake

So, in other words, he types a ton of words and still won't answer questions.

Where does he answer this?

So? Frank Dux made the covers of magazines.
I see no answers but, a great sales pitch for RBSD.

Maybe it is just me but, if you are going to bring something up, address the issue.

Instead he gives us a RBSD commercial.

Don't do the blue font stuff again.

Thank you.

Okay one more post.

I read that longish letter on sport blitz.

Anyone want to explain this? Military and LEOs only:
http://www.sportzblitz.net/Forum/top...TOPIC_ID=13445

As a civilian, can I get equal training as an enlisted Marine?

Depends on how much money you have to spend for that training. I don't know of any of the military branches that just give out that kind of training without you either paying for it in time (enlist) or money (pay us for our time). There may be some former military types who train civilians and give them the "military experience" but they don't really give them the military experience. If they really did, they wouldn't have many repeat customers.

That's also something that separates "getting military training" and "being trained in the military"; that being the commitment aspect. You will view the training differently depending on whether you are learning it as a hobby (or for marketing purposes) or as a soldier who may need to rely on it to save your life and/or the life of your buddies/innocents.

Disclaimer: Former Army, not Marine.

**Gezere** · Posted On: 10/19/2008 8:13pm

Jim likes to keep saying he is the most sought after, read, whatever instructor but I have to ask by WHO?

I find it also funny that no US military branch has adopted Wagner's training. Its the same with all these types if what they peddle is so good then why aren't they being snatched up to help the guys who actually need it other than the weekend warriors and wannabes?

**che_70b** · Posted On: 10/19/2008 8:32pm

This may have been mentioned at some point ealyer that I missed but I recall reading a colum he wrote about his knife in which he said something about needing only 3 millimeters of penetration on a stab to induce shock. My medical training is not that advanced (halfway through EMT-B) but it seems to me that it would would take more depth of penatration to on average to couse enough fluid loss to make some one shocky with any reliability. Someone with more knowledge on shock might be able to reply to this. I believe the article appeared in Black Belt.

**Jeff C.** · Posted On: 10/19/2008 10:41pm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...d-org-2000.gif As can be seen by anybody, his CSMR unit is NOT an element of the 40th IN Bde, in spite of his claims of his unit being "assigned" to it.

"As investigators looking into military matters you should be using proper vocabulary." Well Jimmy, "ANG" is the abbreviation for Air National Guard, not Army National Guard as you stated (the correct abbreviation is ARNG). Get YOUR vocabulary right.

Regarding trying to validate the CSMR based upon being subject to the UCMJ is false on a few points. First, CSMR members are subject to state codes, not federal codes - ever. The UCMJ is a federal document. I don't care how many websites you can point to that have that INCORRECT statement. Look it up in your own state codes.

Second, why do you feel the need to make the CSMR something that it is not? You are acting like you are embarrassed to be a member, as if it does not meet whatever standard you are setting for it. You are disrespecting all of the patriots who volunteer their time with the CSMR by doing so.

I also see you deftly skated over the probability that you did not even attend and/or graduate from AIT. From what you wrote, you only attended BCT. My guess is that you did not attend AIT. Which would also lead me to believe that you probably have an "uncharacterized" discharge (entry-level separation) as opposed to an honorable one. If you are claiming an honorable discharge, the burden of proof is on you. Post your DD 214 if you are going to make that claim - if it bothers you that bad to be called out on it.

I agree with Gezere - the whole letter comes across as lots of words with very little substance. A self-aggrandizing advertisement.

Good luck with your business; I have no ill-will towards you for your chosen line of work. Just keep in mind that whenever you advertise deceptively, you will be called out on it.

Jeff Cook

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 10/20/2008 12:33am

Originally Posted by datdamnmachine

Depends on how much money you have to spend for that training. I don't know of any of the military branches that just give out that kind of training without you either paying for it in time (enlist) or money (pay us for our time). There may be some former military types who train civilians and give them the "military experience" but they don't really give them the military experience. If they really did, they wouldn't have many repeat customers.

That's also something that separates "getting military training" and "being trained in the military"; that being the commitment aspect. You will view the training differently depending on whether you are learning it as a hobby (or for marketing purposes) or as a soldier who may need to rely on it to save your life and/or the life of your buddies/innocents.

Disclaimer: Former Army, not Marine.

Thank you, that is what I thought.

**datdamnmachine** · Posted On: 10/21/2008 2:37am

Originally Posted by Jeff C.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...d-org-2000.gif As can be seen by anybody, his CSMR unit is NOT an element of the 40th IN Bde, in spite of his claims of his unit being "assigned" to it.

"As investigators looking into military matters you should be using proper vocabulary." Well Jimmy, "ANG" is the abbreviation for Air National Guard, not Army National Guard as you stated (the correct abbreviation is ARNG). Get YOUR vocabulary right.

Regarding trying to validate the CSMR based upon being subject to the UCMJ is false on a few points. First, CSMR members are subject to state codes, not federal codes - ever. The UCMJ is a federal document. I don't care how many websites you can point to that have that INCORRECT statement. Look it up in your own state codes.

Second, why do you feel the need to make the CSMR something that it is not? You are acting like you are embarrassed to be a member, as if it does not meet whatever standard you are setting for it. You are disrespecting all of the patriots who volunteer their time with the CSMR by doing so.

I also see you deftly skated over the probability that you did not even attend and/or graduate from AIT. From what you wrote, you only attended BCT. My guess is that you did not attend AIT. Which would also lead me to believe that you probably have an "uncharacterized" discharge (entry-level separation) as opposed to an honorable one. If you are claiming an honorable discharge, the burden of proof is on you. Post your DD 214 if you are going to make that claim - if it bothers you that bad to be called out on it.

I agree with Gezere - the whole letter comes across as lots of words with very little substance. A self-aggrandizing advertisement.

Good luck with your business; I have no ill-will towards you for your chosen line of work. Just keep in mind that whenever you advertise deceptively, you will be called out on it.

Jeff Cook

Here's the wiki on military discharge for those who are curious:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge

Originally Posted by It is Fake

Thank you, that is what I thought.

I still haven't found anything yet that suggests you can get "military" training without joining; that is from the actual military. Considering the monetary cost of per recruit training even though its done by bulk, it would be very cost prohibitive to provide that training to civilians. Some cursory searching on the interwebs:

military training for civilians - Google Search

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...052700854.html

http://www.sealtrainingadventures.com/

Almost everything that turns up is your typical "train like the military trains.." type stuff were you pay a bunch of money and get the experience. Again, the problem lies in the fact that you are basically buying a product that, if not to your liking, you can give back, refuse to use, etc. No commitment needed. Again, it goes back to the commitment thing.

I guess if you went through one of those things and they are ran by former military personal, it could be a bit of a stretch to say you were "military trained". "Technically" it would be true, but then that's the problem. Too much "stretching" of truth.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 10/21/2008 9:48am

See, and that is what I have heard. I thought maybe some of you "actual" serving members knew of such a thing. The fact you are having trouble finding anything that matches his alleged words is telling.