This derail is going to be moved. This is the point. When you get sued you err on the side of caution. Sometimes, people overreact a bit.
Originally Posted by SteveRBSD
Thing is, your current posting does seem strange.
Now, you could have been forth coming from the get go. You chose not to which is fine.
I have no part in the RBSD field, just an outside observer poiting out a few things.
You aren't an outside observer. You came to this thread because you know/encountered (maybe not as well as others) Wagner. That means, unlike me, you are not an outside observer.
I am an outside observer who has trained in RBSD and done a Wagner course.
I have no RBSD experience nor have I trained with Wagner.
The semantics, in this discussion, is coming from you not BFM.
Welcome to bullshido, when you are not up front, then backtrack, people become suspicious.
This is a discussion not court. When people start comparing the two more often then not we get comments like this
Originally Posted by SteveRBSD
This tends to lead people to the conclusion they are being set up for a lawsuit.
So to clarify, are you accusing Jim of being an out and out fraud? You give so much evidence that surely we're coming to the point soon where legal action can be taken.
Oh and this doesn't help
Yes, I'd trust Sam over any "semantics battle" you decide to engage in. This is the second time you tried to pin someone down.
Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
Originally Posted by It is Fake
Thank you . I was starting to feel bad about how much space this was taking up in this investigation thread but I just couldn't let it sit there unnoticed . I felt it was the kind thing to do ( point out the continued setups and contradictions ) .
Last edited by BackFistMonkey; 9/18/2008 2:24pm at .
Originally Posted by ghost55
“I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.”
Originally Posted by WFMurphyPhD
Actually, it may not be moved. I re-read the thread and realized these warnings need to stay. Like I said in the earlier posts SteveRBSD isn't being forthcoming, Just like you noticed.
Sam warned us about the possibilities and he left. He mysteriously returns when, someone gets "close" to the "fraud" accusation in his opinion.
Then he reappears to say "interesting first post" then, tries to pin down a declarative statement.
Me too, move it. I agree with everything you say IsItFake, as I've said before it's my fault for not getting my point across in a way that wouldn't arouse skepticism and suspicion.
Last edited by SteveRBSD; 9/18/2008 2:33pm at .
Unsure if this has already been brought to your attention, but Jim has attempted to answer many of the questions put forward regarding his credentials:
the following is the text posted on there.
note for anyone who reads this, the following text is posted by someone else claiming jim wagner wrote this.
Jim Wagner is a Fraud
By Jim Wagner
“If these accusations are not true, then why isn’t Jim Wagner defending himself? This is what they are saying on some of the forums mate.” said Matt Jones as we were driving from Adelaide Airport in Southern Australia on Tuesday, July 8th. He had picked me up in his white SUV in preparation for our Level 1 course.
Matt, the Reality-Based Personal Protection Director of Australia, was referring to a few Australian martial arts forums accusing me of lying about military, law enforcement, and martial arts background. These forums picked up the juicy tidbits from a British and American website. After all, if the accusations were indeed true then it would be a big blow to the fastest growing and most complete martial arts system in the world. Take down the founder and you take down the Jim Wagner Reality-Based Personal Protection system all together, and just maybe there would be the additional collateral damage of destroying the “reality-based” term that thousands are now using to describe this movement many are following directly or indirectly. It would also put egg on the face of Black Belt magazine (North America) and Budo magazine (Europe) who both credit me with launching the reality-based self-defense movement and Blitz magazine who just ran a cover story on me only two months ago.
This all started two weeks ago I was in Devon, England teaching my RBPP Level 1 courses. One of my students, now one of my certified instructors, Andrew Spencer, came up to me and said, “Did you see what such-and-such website wrote about you?” (Note: I shall leave this website nameless at this time because I have just written to them asking them to remove all information about me that is currently on their website. Should they refuse to do this in a reasonable time, then I will make their website known. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt before any action is taken. You can refer to my correspondence with them as you continue reading).
I replied to Matt, “That does not surprise me. But, no, I had not seen it.”
I get a fair number of blogs, forums, and websites criticizing me, but this one just could not be ignored. Since I had only heard about this news just two weeks ago, also from other sources like law enforcement agencies I had trained who knew the website to be false, I did not have time for damage control, and plus I had to do a little research of my own to track down other related websites connected with this particular spreading of false information. I didn’t have time to address the problem because I was in the middle of teaching my Level 1 courses, and then immediately following I had to fly to Madrid, Spain to work with Budo International on my new book, two more new DVDs, and three new articles. My work was the priority. Now that I have a couple of days to settle down in Adelaide before my next class I can adequately address the accusations flying around the world. I must deal with this, because it has many people “concerned.” Unfortunately, the Internet is a double edged sword. It is a great source for obtaining information and communications, but it also gives unscrupulous people a way to present misinformation. But, as the old saying goes, you can’t always believe everything you read.
This is my letter to the website that started the current chain of events:
To Whom It May Concern:
You have me, James Wagner, on your website listed in your Wannabes & Phonies section along with supposed supporting documentation to your claim. Although your wording is not libel, per se, it definitely leads any Internet reader to believe that I am a liar, or “phony,” as you have so bluntly indicated. Obviously I am requesting that all information about me be removed immediately from your website because the assumptions are false.
For being a self-proclaimed investigative organization I am disappointed, to say the least, that you did not look into whether the allegations were true or false before publishing them. Is that your method of investigation, to throw up a bunch of accusations and see if anyone responds or not? I would think that before you set out to destroy a person’s reputation that you would at least have the ethics to thoroughly investigation a little deeper into the material you post. In my case you could have simply emailed me. You seemed to have found my website address without any difficulty. Instead, I have to hear about these accusations from my associates in the United Kingdom and Canada.
As a rebuttal I will use your own text and go line by line addressing each issue. First I will show your own text as it appears on your website, your accusations, and then I will answer each one of them.
WAGNER, James 05/2008 Huntington Beach/Irvine CA Is shown on the cover of multiple magazines in what appears to be a U.S. Army Uniform including rank.
Yes, I was on the recent cover of both Black Belt magazine (USA) and Blitz magazine (Australia) wearing my authorized Army Combat Uniform. I am a sergeant SGT/E5 with the California State Military Reserve assigned to the 40th Infantry Division (Mechanized) Support, Provost Marshal Office; a rank I have held for two years. If you would have read the article in Black Belt magazine you would have seen my unit printed there in black and white. Over 70,000 issues were printed.
Under the California Military Department the California Army National Guard (which can be federalized) and California State Military Reserve (which cannot be federalized) are authorized to wear the Army Combat Uniform (ACU). Permission was grated to me by my chain-of-command in hopes of recruiting more people into both branches of the California Military Department in a time when the United States military, and the State of California, desperately need more soldiers in the War on Terrorism, peace keeping missions, and for State emergencies. The Black Belt magazine cover story did indeed accomplish this goal with a few patriotic individuals enlisting. It also made the public aware of the State Defense Forces throughout the United States, which few people knew about. I have received emails from individuals from several states asking me how they could enlist in the State Defense Force. I responded by recommending that they contact their local recruiter. How many other individuals enlisted in these outside states is unknown, but even if only one person had enlisted I feel that I have done my part in strengthening the United States Armed Forces. For my contribution to recruiting efforts I was awarded the State Recruiting Ribbon which is on record with the California Department of Military. The story printed in Black Belt magazine and Blitz magazine are directly related to my current assignment as a self-defense instructor. In the Black Belt magazine article I am shown in a photograph taken at the Joint Forces Training Based, California training Army National Guard (ANG) troops in my ACU (our training uniform as well).
If you were to have looked at the photographs in the inside of the magazine you would have seen my unit patch, my rank, and the word CALIFORNIA over the left breast pocket. Had you looked inside the magazine, but missed reading the actual text listing my unit, you would have definitely been able to investigate what unit I belong to, and what unit the other troops belong to, by looking closely at the many color photographs printed inside. I guess the old adage of YOU CAN’T JUDGE A BOOK BY IT’S COVER is no truer than in this case. Upon obtaining this observational information a simple phone call to our military headquarters at the State Capitol of Sacramento would have verified that I am indeed a sworn soldier, and one who has also been on State Active Duty. My assignments and missions include imbedded activity with the Army National Guard.
2. Is using the Marine Sniper School at Pendleton as a reference but was never a Marine.
First of all, the above sentence is an incomplete sentence, and the school should be referred to as Scout Sniper School. Had you attended this school you would have known how particular they are about their good name and reputation. Plus, the proper name for the school’s location is MCB Camp Pendleton (MCB standing for Marine Corps Base). As investigators looking into military matters you should be using proper vocabulary.
Although I have had extensive training by the United States Marine Corps, and I have taught many defensive tactics and tactics courses to various Marine units, I have never claimed to be a United States Marine. I have also trained U.S. Air Force Security Forces units, U.S. Navy Provost Marshal Office units, and U.S. Coast Guard units and have never claimed to be a member of these branches either. Nowhere in any article, any correspondence, or email have I ever stated I was a United States Marine. As a military investigating unit you should know that there is, and was, a certain degree of liaison between our military and the law enforcement community.
Did you actually read the letter you posted on your website that is suppose to be supporting documentation of my fraud? This letter, from 1st Lieutenant T.C. West of Scout Sniper School, Division Schools, 1st Marine Division dated 11 Feb 94, is a LETTER OF APPRECIATION thanking me (Officer Jim Wagner, Costa Mesa Police Department) for my “assistance on numerous occasions to help coordinate, participate in, and evaluate Sniper training scenarios and courses that incorporate realistic applications to both Law Enforcement and Military personnel.” Anyone who reads this, for it is in layman English, will understand the meaning of it. It plainly states that I was at Camp Pendleton “ON NUMEROUS OCCAISIONS” involved with Scout Sniper School in the capacity of a civilian law enforcement advisor. Would a United States commissioned officer sign a document that was untrue? The answer is obviously not. This document is on record with both the United States Marine Corps and the Costa Mesa Police Department. It was the Costa Mesa Police Department, more specifically Lieutenant Ron Smith (the Costa Mesa Police Department SWAT Commander at the time), Captain Brooks, and Chief Dave Snowden, who authorized me to train countless times on city time. How does this document that you placed up on your website indicate that I was passing myself off as a Marine, because that is exactly what you are implying on your website.
The second document you have from the United States Marine Corps is a certificate given to me by Scout Sniper School on January 5, 1993 for an “advance sniper course prescribed by the Scout Sniper School.” Whether this is an “official government document” or not, I do not know, I was never a Marine. I am not familiar with all of their forms. However, that is the very document they handed to me upon graduation of the course (along with fellow Costa Mesa Police officers Sergeant Darell Freeman, Senior Officer Mike Cohen, Senior Officer Paul Ellis, Senior Officer Dan Erber and approximately 20 other law enforcement officers from multiple Southern California law enforcement agencies both local, State, and federal) in an official United States Marine Corps display folder. Fortunately, I have the class photo which was taken in front of the Scout Sniper School building and sign, along with all of the United States Marine Corps instructors in it who taught the course. Apparently I must post this photo on my website, and the other photographs taken at this event, to dispel the damage you have done. When I place that training certificate on my website a few years ago I had no idea that it would be questioned. And why should I have? I’ve never had any of my documentation questioned before, and I have only put up a small fraction of my qualifications. So, whether this is strictly a Division Schools in house certificate or not, you would have to take the matter up with them. This certificate is also in my official personnel file with the Costa Mesa Police Department, the Orange County Sheriff’s Office, the United States Federal Air Marshal Service and the California State Military Reserve. Of course, the certificate itself is just a piece of paper, but what it represents to me, and the men who participated at this event, was three days of intensive scout sniper training taught by Marines of the Scout Sniper School; knowledge that I learned and have passed on to many others over the years to help save lives.
4. Constantly refers to himself as Sergeant in reference to his military background while in a military uniform when he has produced no DD214 to verify rank or service.
Had your investigative report continued to go in chronological order this sentence should have been numbered as number 2 in order to keep a consistent theme thread with the opening sentence, which should have been numbered as number 1. As a law enforcement officer who has investigated thousands of crimes, I am pointing this out to you so that in the future when you list accusations about individuals your work will look profession, thus giving credibility to your website.
In my first military service, with the United States Army (Regular), in 1981 I attained the rank of Private E2 before being awarded an Honorable Discharge. I served my country at this time for 8 months and 12 days. On my website I write about this period in my life. To make a long story short on your behalf, I was recruited for the WOFT (Warrant Officer Flight Program) at 18 years of age. I qualified for the program and my paperwork was submitted through the proper Army channels. According to Standard Operating Procedures my recruiter, Staff Sergeant Smeltzer (Costa Mesa, California Recruiting Office) was to wait for my class date. I was told that my WOFT class date could be approximately six months away. My recruiter had a not so brilliant idea and said that I could get boot camp “out of the way,” and probably AIT (Advance Individual Training) as well in order to get a secondary MOS while waiting for my WOFT class date. Apparently SSG Smeltzer did not know that this would cause a foul up in the system. When the WOFT program personnel at Fort Rucker, Alabama found out that I had enlisted as a Radio Operator they assumed I no longer wanted to attend the WOFT program and I lost my slot. After months of trying to sort out the mess the Army admitted their mistake, thanks to my congressman, the honorable, Robert E. Badham. Through my Battalion commander I was given a choice of reapplying for the WOFT program, with no guarantees of entering within three years, or the second choice receiving an Honorable Discharge. I took the second option. Thus, my first service to my country should in no way be linked to my rank as a Reserve sergeant with the Orange County Sheriffs Department or the rank of sergeant E5 in the California State Military Reserve today.
Since 1999 I have been one of the most read martial arts instructors in the world writing for Black Belt magazine (North America), Budo magazine (Europe), other martial arts publication with five books now on the market. In 2000 when I became a sergeant (Reserve) with the Orange County Sheriff’s Department Black Belt magazine and Budo magazine like the idea of using my rank in front of my name to give people an idea of my credentials, and it has stuck ever since.
As stated previously I am a sergeant E5 with the California State Military Reserve. If I “constantly” refer to myself as “Sergeant” that is because I am. You know very well that any State Defense Force is an official military organization under the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). To connect my previous military service to today’s military service in connection to my rank is your mistake, not mine. Had you just ordered a copy of Black Belt magazine or Blitz magazine (for it was Black Belt magazine who sent Blitz magazine the photo you had posted) you would have solved your investigation in mere minutes.
Concerning my DD214 to “verify rank or service,” who in the world would put up their DD214 on a self-defense website, or any other website for that matter? What is next, my DOJ fingerprints, my birth certificate, my driver’s license, my passport? However, one day if it becomes the norm for all martial artist instructors with a military background to post their DD214 then I will post my DD214. Of course, I know that you worded the sentence on your website in such a way as to make it look like I was never a sergeant in order to discredit me.
It is obvious to me that one of my self-defense competitors gave you your “lead.” The fact that I am “being investigated” by your organization has conveniently recently appeared on a few of my competitor’s websites, and since such accusations are rarely verified by many readers, it has had the temporary impact they were hoping for. It appears you have been used to accomplish their smear tactic. It does not take a professional investigator to figure out the motivation behind the accusations. Thus, I’m assuming at this point that you just threw up whatever someone fed you and did not properly investigate the matter. I can’t imagine that this would come from your organization directly. If that were the case then that would just show complete incompetence on your part, especially from an organization soliciting donations. As such, I request that all the information about me on your website be immediately taken off of your website. Failure to do so will result in me listing your website on my website as an unreliable source of information. Contrary to what you may believe, base on the information you have posted about me, there are literally thousands from the military, law enforcement, corrections, and martial arts communities all around the world who support me and the Jim Wagner Reality-Based Personal Protection system.
edit Lebell: this is the source of the text: http://www.sportzblitz.net/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13445
Last edited by Lebell; 10/19/2008 10:16am at .
Last edited by Lebell; 10/19/2008 10:06am at .
Just for clarification purposes, the "someone else" who posted this text is Matt Jones (who incidentally I train under, so I make no claim to impartiality) who is the main RBPP representative in Australia. I would assume it was written when Jim was in Adelaide for a RBPP seminar, which I unfortunately missed due to lack of cash.
note for anyone who reads this, the following text is posted by someone else claiming jim wagner wrote this.
More of a response here:
And for those of you who hate teh linkzors, here is the text from the post:
This is Jim Wagner. Matt Jones has been kind enough to let me log onto this forum in order to say “good bye” as I head back to America.
Today, 22 July 2008, marks the end of my tenth course taught here in Adelaide, Australia over the past two weeks.
When I first arrived two and a half weeks ago many on this forum were questioning my background. It started as “Jim Wagner was never a sergeant in the military” to “Yes, Jim Wagner is a military sergeant, but he was not on the SWAT team” and all sorts of accusations in between.
Then there were those who said that “Reality-Based” is a term not liked by some, and that Reality-Based people were nothing more than people running around in camouflage pants.
Yet despite those who have never seen the system, and despite the fact that some of the world’s most elite police and military teams have invited me to teach in their countries, it did not stop 15 Australians from taking my 10 courses and being instructor certified. The list includes a Gracie black belt, a soldier, a federal police officer, doormen, and martial arts instructors from a variety of martial arts. Some of these people have made their voices heard on this very forum.
While I was here in Australia I paid attention to the news programs and looked into the newspapers. Australia, although a low population, seems to have a ratio of violence that is right along the rest of the Western world: shootings, stabbings, murders, sexual assault, burglaries, and experts saying that terrorism is not going to go away anytime soon.
Reality-Based Personal Protection is exactly that – “reality.” I, along with my newly certified instructors, are teaching men and women how to survive these very real threats. It seems that most martial arts instructions are concerned with the ego fight: pub fights, somebody cuts you off in traffic, or low intensity conflicts. Those are important, nobody would deny that, but what most systems are not teaching here are dealing with the life and death situations: caught in a crossfire, prison style knife attacks, gang attacks, somebody mounted on you smashing your skull into the floor, and yes – even a possible terrorist attack. We are giving people solutions. We are not telling them, like some, “Oh, don’t worry mate, nobody is going to shoot you, try to cut your throat, or plant a bomb in a busy restaurant.” Quite the opposite, we give people the tools to deal with these situations in a detailed step-by-step manner and then run them through realistic scenarios. We are giving them “life insurance.” After all, it is better to have the knowledge and not need it than to need the knowledge and not have it.
Funny enough, none of us over the past two weeks were running around in “camo pants.” I do that kind of stuff when I am training soldiers for deploying to Iraq or Afghanistan back home, not in a civilian-based course. Yes, the Jim Wagner Reality-Based Personal Protection system has plenty of military and police techniques in it. That much is true. It also has a good mix of bodyguard tactics, corrections techniques, and the best technique and training methods from martial arts systems all over the world, however, it is a system 100% for civilians: housewives, business professionals, students, beginners, black belts, and everything in between. Yet, it attracts those who actually fight for a living because it contains information that their agencies and units are not giving them.
Reality-Based is one of the three branches of the martial arts: traditional-based, sport-based, and reality-based martial arts. They are three very distinct directions available to people. Getting hung up on the actual term “Reality-Based” is silly, but understanding the concept is revolutionary. Ever since I coined the term a decade ago for the civilian martial arts it has expanded and it has grown. Thousands use the term to separate it from traditional or sport-based systems. Most people seem to have no trouble understanding its general meaning. The term “Reality-Based Personal Protection” is my own term for what I, Jim Wagner, teach. It is a lot easier to say than, “Personal self-defence for those who want to learn how to deal with conflict situations that they are most likely to face in their environment or when they migrate into a new environment.” I prefer to stick with a few simple English words. It is easier when answering the office phone, and most people connect the dots rather quickly.
Blitz magazine placed me on the cover a few months ago because the Jim Wagner Reality-Based system is a global system that is growing. It has greatly impacted the martial arts community and Blitz keeps up on the trends – that’s their job. With only twelve issues a year they select the stories they feel are most important. Reality-Based is important not just because of me, but because it is an easy system to learn, and easy system to master, and an easy system to teach. Not only is it not just about me, it is what Matt Jones writes about as well. He writes the best articles one can find on fitness, and he keeps priming the Jim Wagner Reality-Based Personal Protection system. Matt is my point-man for my system. He runs a very successful school in Adelaide and is the main reason why my system is in Australia. He took the gamble years ago to fly out to Los Angeles and get instructor certified by me. He invested the time and money knowing that he was onto something different. These last two weeks, coupled with last year’s success, proved him correct.
As I head back to Los Angeles I leave behind some well qualified instructors. In several days all of their information will be up on my website under CERTIFIED INSTRUCTORS on my website http://www.jimwagnerrealitybased.com I also take with me some good memories and good friendships.
So, I leave you all with my parting thought, “Be A Hard Target.”
Lebell, if you are going to post, you need to put a link to where you copied the letter.
The article he posted was from the link I previously provided...sorry about that, should've posted the text as well
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