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  1. SteveRBSD is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2008 2:37pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Reality Based Self Defens

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
    You are the one who says that there is something wrong with Hubbard's claims. If you feel that this is relevant, you should start your own thread and assemble some facts.
    It's not just me who shares this view. Why should I have to start a thread, it's not necessary. There are many things I disagree with but it doesn't mean I should be starting threads all the time to air my concerns. I do however, have a right to give my opinion on this thread, as everyone else does.

    Steve
  2. SteveRBSD is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2008 2:46pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Reality Based Self Defens

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Do you have a forum?

    I mean joking happens until the article appears. I mean, you have used sarcasm ( a form of joking) yourself.
    Thanks, I'm only trying to work out whether this forum is meant to investigate things in a serious and unbiased way or whether the rules are innocent till proven guilty and ridicule the subject because actually, we think he guilty anyway? I like what Bullshido does but can't help thinking the guy has been pre-emptively lynched! I can understand regular forum members posting stuff like this but I'm not sure I agree with the Staff doing it. This is just my opinion and I'm not knocking the point of Bullshido, just the way it's being done.

    Steve
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/21/2008 3:01pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, did you start this thread on those forums or only this one?


    Preemptively lynched? See, you make all these wild accusations but, won't list what is actually missing.

    Oh and you are doing the one thing I absolutely loathe.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveRBSD
    I do however, have a right to give my opinion on this thread, as everyone else does.

    Steve
    Then, you really need to practice what you preach.
  4. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2008 3:02pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveRBSD
    Hi everyone,

    To look at the bigger picture concerning Jim Wagner I think we must also examine who is making the most noise over this.

    Joe Hubbard, the UK director of the Scientific Fighting Congress began signing up and posting on forums claiming Jim Wagner had been exposed.

    It transpires that Joe himself has already been exposed as pursuing an agenda of competitior sour grapes. If you look at these two threads you can see how they start and how they end. For expedience sake, it shows that Joe is himself guilty of the things he claims Wagner is doing.

    1. http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/se...wnet-t6252.htm

    2. http://senshido.savi.ca/viewtopic.php?t=5346

    Whilst I agree that frauds should be exposed, I think we should leave the inquiry to people who do not have their own agenda e.g. competitiors in the same field. What we have here is a smear campaign that is attempting to discredit Jim Wagner before the true facts have been revealed.

    If it transpires that Wagner is guilty of hyperbole then there are many others who are just as guilty in my eyes, including the Scientific Fighting Congress. It's an exceptionally grey area as to what constitutes a fraud as most RBSD instructors bend the truth, use advertising to their best advantage and are ultimately trying to sell us something. In a nutshell, I think they are all bullshitters out to make money, and I am including JW in this. As an adult though, I am capable of working out what is advertising, what is ultimately worth spending my money on and am intelligent to know when politics are involved (as in this case).

    Let someone in authority deal with this if it is that serious and stop this unbiased slagging off without the true facts.

    Steve
    Steve, you said:

    "It transpires that Joe himself has already been exposed as pursuing an agenda of competitior sour grapes."

    In the martial arts community Steven, the people who are most likely to know if something is not right with Wagner are others in the RBSD field, or as you call them 'competitiors'. So if you want to say that Joe should not be believed why don't you show us where he has a history of fabrication, or alternatively, has has facts wrong. Now to do that will require a bit of investigation on your part, but I'm sure you are up to it! :)
  5. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2008 3:18pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveRBSD
    Thanks, I'm only trying to work out whether this forum is meant to investigate things in a serious and unbiased way or whether the rules are innocent till proven guilty and ridicule the subject because actually, we think he guilty anyway? I like what Bullshido does but can't help thinking the guy has been pre-emptively lynched! I can understand regular forum members posting stuff like this but I'm not sure I agree with the Staff doing it. This is just my opinion and I'm not knocking the point of Bullshido, just the way it's being done.

    Steve
    Steve, I interviewed a Costa Mesa police officer, named Phil Hartman, who was with their Swat team when Jim Wagner was stating he was on the SWAT team but not mentioning he was not doing entries, sniping, or training this team. You have not produced any evidence that Mr. Hartman is an unreliable witness.

    Secondly Wagner's discription of his regular air martial flights as "counter terrorism missions" is well documented. He claimed either 142 or 146 such missions. I've explained why such a claim is grossly misleading, unless probably close to 100,000 Americans are doing "counter terrorism" missions each day. (For example, any of our troops guarding any location in Iraq which could be car bombed) For Wagner to make such a claim grossly misleading.

    Then you whine that the man is being "lynched", even though when one poster came to us, asking if he should cancel a seminar with Mr. Wagner, we told him to ask Mr. Wagner's response to Hoch's 13 questions, and Wagner ducked, ALL OF THE QUESTIONS and cancelled the seminar himself.

    Given Wagner's behavior, and the facts above, I have no problem saying that something is wrong with his account of his own professional career in law enforcement/counter terrorism, and that gives rise to a healthy skepticism regarding his claims. If you wish to call this "bias" and remain agast at an occasional joke at Wagner's expense, you may do so.
  6. SteveRBSD is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2008 3:27pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Reality Based Self Defens

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    So, did you start this thread on those forums or only this one?


    Preemptively lynched? See, you make all these wild accusations but, won't list what is actually missing.

    Oh and you are doing the one thing I absolutely loathe.

    Then, you really need to practice what you preach.
    I'm sorry I upset you. Maybe I'm being too critical on the process.

    Steve
  7. SteveRBSD is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2008 3:32pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Reality Based Self Defens

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
    Steve, I interviewed a Costa Mesa police officer, named Phil Hartman, who was with their Swat team when Jim Wagner was stating he was on the SWAT team but not mentioning he was not doing entries, sniping, or training this team. You have not produced any evidence that Mr. Hartman is an unreliable witness.

    Secondly Wagner's discription of his regular air martial flights as "counter terrorism missions" is well documented. He claimed either 142 or 146 such missions. I've explained why such a claim is grossly misleading, unless probably close to 100,000 Americans are doing "counter terrorism" missions each day. (For example, any of our troops guarding any location in Iraq which could be car bombed) For Wagner to make such a claim grossly misleading.

    Then you whine that the man is being "lynched", even though when one poster came to us, asking if he should cancel a seminar with Mr. Wagner, we told him to ask Mr. Wagner's response to Hoch's 13 questions, and Wagner ducked, ALL OF THE QUESTIONS and cancelled the seminar himself.

    Given Wagner's behavior, and the facts above, I have no problem saying that something is wrong with his account of his own professional career in law enforcement/counter terrorism, and that gives rise to a healthy skepticism regarding his claims. If you wish to call this "bias" and remain agast at an occasional joke at Wagner's expense, you may do so.
    Thanks Sam, I'm trying not to whine and I apologise if I'm coming across like that. I agree there is skeptisism to be had but I can't alter my viewpoint on bias. Who now decides how serious the evidence gathered is so far?

    Steve
  8. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2008 3:35pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Each reader of this thread makes their own decision as to how seriously they wish to take each individual post.
  9. SteveRBSD is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/21/2008 3:51pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Reality Based Self Defens

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
    Each reader of this thread makes their own decision as to how seriously they wish to take each individual post.
    Yes, I agree. However, say people currently booking\paying Wagner find this thread, see the admin ridiculing him, work out that Bullshido is an important and influential forum and then decide to cancel him -this has already happened. At this point we are already affecting Wagner's business adversely. This is fine if he is guilty (the seriousness yet to be decided) but if he were to answer these questions to everyone's satisfaction is it not a not harsh that he is being affected at this early stage? I agree that my viewpoint may not match others but I would like someone authoritative to tell me he is a scumbag based on a decided level of seriousness evidence before I pre-judge.

    Steve
  10. Joe Karate is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/21/2008 3:54pm


     Style: TSD-MDK, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Steve,

    I'm afraid I smell an agenda (another word for bias) in your posts so far. The very fact you have joined this discussion as a new poster on Bullshido, simply to caution against slant / bias in the investigation of Mr. Wagner and then after a number of posts, claim ignorance of how the forum works is well, suspicious.

    It could be complete coincidence but I'm thinking not. Again, I commend your admission to involvement in RBSD but will follow-up on two previous requests (one by me) for you to explain your involvement in this field and association with any of the players named so far.

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