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  1. JBDzn is offline

    Featherweight

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    New Jersey
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2008 3:25pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Because of the implied threat of litigation floating over this thread I decided to go to the TSA website regarding their "official" description of the Air Marshals. Given what has been uncovered so far this link is of nominal value but I think that it is helpful in providing a tool to better critique some of the claims made by Mr. Wagner.

    Here is the link http://www.tsa.gov/lawenforcement/programs/fams.shtm
  2. Sam Browning is offline

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    Apr 2003
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    New England
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    9,863

    Posted On:
    8/07/2008 6:51pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi JBD, is Wagner now threatening to sue? That would be interesting.
  3. tomoe gozen is offline

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    Aug 2008
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    Oregon
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2008 9:11pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Krav Maga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow... very interesting indeed. I do know that a lot of instructors have no real LE experiance and skirt the issues just enough to make it sound like they are. And to be honest guys, lots of groups are "training whores"... meaning if you offer it to them for free, they will send people. I won't name who but they range from local LE to federal and military... Look for letters of referrence from agencies and organizations, repeat business and contracts for training. Just a thought...
  4. JBDzn is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    8/07/2008 11:00pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi, Sam. I am referring to Mr. Wagner's use of the following language in his reply earlier in this thread, to wit, the following :

    "Tom:

    I understand your concerns. I would not want your school tainted by my "background." Therefore, I will cancel our course together in December.

    Be A Hard Target,

    Jim Wagner


    I don't mind giving people my background, which I expanded slightly on my own website, but I will not answer direct questions from a liar who libels my name on the World Wide Web. If you cannot see through the tactics of my competitors then it will be impossible to ever have trust between us. "

    Sorry about not figuring out how properly quote the post in my reply.

    Just the same, Mr. Wagner's use of the word libel combined with the characterization of his critic as a liar is worth taking note of. In spite of Hock's earlier post dismissing economic concerns as the catalyst for his inquiry; Mr. Wagner's reponse has all the earmarks of a claim of tortious interference with an economic interest lawsuit. By that I mean that rather simply state that he would not answer the questions presented by his propective customer, he canceled an event that would have been paid for. By basing the cancellation upon the "libelous" actions of a "competitor" he need only to name the tortfeasor and then claim that his business relationship was intentionally interefered with by the aforesaid "liar/competitor." That extrapolation on my part is what motivated my second post.

    I agree that it would be interesting to see if he ramps things up to the level necessary to file a complaint. Given the historical Free Speech/First Amendment slant of the internet I question the likelihood of such an action succeeding given the particulars to date. But since Mr. Wagner's website's contents regarding his background might not match the actual description of the positions and MOS he claims to have held, presenting actual government information and data here regarding the same might be useful. BTW, read his column in last month's Blackbelt magazine regarding his numerous courtroom observations of how attorneys twist the truth.

    Some days I think I sould have gone to Music school :guitar:
  5. Sam Browning is offline

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    New England
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    Posted On:
    8/08/2008 9:56am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If Wagner sued, the defendant would most likely obtain the ability to "discover" his complete military, police, and Air Marshal records. I don't think he wants to go there.
  6. zipit777 is offline

    Registered Member

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    Dec 2004
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    NYC, NY
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    167

    Posted On:
    8/11/2008 8:50am


     Style: Reality Self Defense

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think you are right, It would destroy him and if he does, his career as an instructor would be finished....Period....
    Again, if you have some money, you can market anything....
  7. lee roy brown is offline

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    Jul 2008
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2008 1:04pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wagner is the "Ab King Pro " of SD. Telling people what he offers is effective and takes almost no time for results...just like all those Ab Trainers offered in TV...

    But I always had the slight feeling that Wagner just understood that MANY people in MA/SD want to believe. Like the Wing Chun and systema guys...they WANT their Sifu or whatever to be larger than life. They want to believe this. And when it's about believing...than forget any arguments...
    The problem is not Wagner...the problem are the people who buy his crap, who buy Ab Trainers which you need to train only 3 mins a day with for a sixpack and who believe every snake oil salesman along the road
  8. JBDzn is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2008 2:48pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lee roy brown
    ...the problem are the people who buy his crap, who buy Ab Trainers which you need to train only 3 mins a day with for a sixpack and who believe every snake oil salesman along the road
    I concur with that observation. Look, for anyone who actually made a career of being in the United States Armed Forces, the simple fact of the matter is that other than certain kinds of MOS, you can spend the majority of your time doing tasks that have civilian counterparts. The main selling point of the post-Vietnam/Pre 9-11 volunteer military was that you went in to receive training and acquire skills that would help you in civilian life after you completed your period of enlistment.

    Sometimes people seeking solutions or answers regarding their personal development and growth engage in behaviours that keep them safely away from the unpleasant or stressfull parts of life that one sometimes has to go through to actually be able to do what you claim you want to do.

    The current cachet attached to ex-SF, Military Combatives, Black Ops instructors is just one facet of the market that snake oil salesmen pitch product to.

    The current GWOT has made the average American re-think their opinions regarding personal saftey here in the U.S. The fact that such concerns can be catered to by individuals who, regardless of their credentials and/or experience, claim to have the answers to that concern contributes to situation you speak of lee roy brown.

    Let's face it , in an era obsessed with instant gratification can any of us really be surprised that every year some "expert" comes onto the scene with all the answers to the problem du jour.

    All I can add is that snake oil doesn't only kill the snake.
  9. jj77 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    south carolina
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    204

    Posted On:
    8/14/2008 3:05pm


     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JBDzn
    I concur with that observation. Look, for anyone who actually made a career of being in the United States Armed Forces, the simple fact of the matter is that other than certain kinds of MOS, you can spend the majority of your time doing tasks that have civilian counterparts. The main selling point of the post-Vietnam/Pre 9-11 volunteer military was that you went in to receive training and acquire skills that would help you in civilian life after you completed your period of enlistment.

    Sometimes people seeking solutions or answers regarding their personal development and growth engage in behaviours that keep them safely away from the unpleasant or stressfull parts of life that one sometimes has to go through to actually be able to do what you claim you want to do.

    The current cachet attached to ex-SF, Military Combatives, Black Ops instructors is just one facet of the market that snake oil salesmen pitch product to.

    The current GWOT has made the average American re-think their opinions regarding personal saftey here in the U.S. The fact that such concerns can be catered to by individuals who, regardless of their credentials and/or experience, claim to have the answers to that concern contributes to situation you speak of lee roy brown.

    Let's face it , in an era obsessed with instant gratification can any of us really be surprised that every year some "expert" comes onto the scene with all the answers to the problem du jour.

    All I can add is that snake oil doesn't only kill the snake.

    That's the whole problem in a nutshell. Our society wants everything " right now " and forgets that anything worthwhile such as MA's, weight loss, etc.. to name a few takes dedicated time and no pills , 3 min excercises or 24 hr SD classes will solve. As long as the market is there for ppl like Wagner and a few others that sell their "expertise " they will continue to florish and grow and people open themselves up to these "salesmen " and spend untold monies for stuff that is in reality almost worthless for what they actually get out of it.
  10. lee roy brown is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    8/15/2008 8:41am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In today's world people salve their conscience trough buying stuff...they buy a book about fitness and think they did something..than they even don't manage to read the whole book and after a few weeks it's dust covered.

    After 9/11 there was a huge need for salving someone's conscience...and Wagner and others recognized it as that.

    In reality what he sells differs not much from what all kind of obscure kung fu masters did long time before him...they recognized a trend(caused by Kung Fu movies) and sold some crap. They had some funny clothing, some colored belts, some bowing and doing obscure rituals for greeting and showing respect...and you have almost a religious cult.

    Now take away the funny clothing and the belts and carry instead some BDUs, a combat vest and a helmet, take your airsoft M-4 and talk to people trough vid, show them some "certificates" and tell them how "realistic" your approach is(because you use street clothing in your seminars) and how "tactical" your stuff is and you have still some kind of cult...with yourself as the "Larger than life SF Vet" as the leader....and an entourage of guys who are metally retarded up to a certain degree....and you can sell your overpriced DVDs, seminars and stuff just as scientology sells E-meters to some idiots....

    I bet Wagner metaly jerked off every time all those lil Phil Elmores looked thankfully in his eyes like they were sucking his **** because he had sooo much to tell and he would turn them into TACTICAL KILLING MACHINES and ....he could salve their conscience.

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