Shoto-Kai vs Shotokan MABS run Off

**WorldWarCheese** · Posted On: 7/08/2008 4:35pm

Okay, so joke post aside (really, dude, a Karate A vs Karate B thread?) I youtube'd dis here vid and if what you do is what these guys do, then it's not so bad IMO (then again, I'm not a striker).

YouTube - Campeonato kumite PARTE 1. Karate Shotokai

**Petter** · Posted On: 7/08/2008 4:41pm

Originally Posted by ADM

Also not doign competition isn't so much a terrible thing, but pressure testing your skill in open tournaments (open to everyone) will only ever make you better.

More than that. I've never yet competed in BJJ and will almost certainly never compete in kickboxing (too much of a pansy, I guess). However, because my kickboxing coach has competed, I know that he has the kind of skills that can be put in the ring. Because my BJJ instructor not only competes, but also produces students who compete successfully, I know that I receive training good enough to put winners on the mats (Tim can both do and teach). Competitive pressure prevents the teaching from getting inbred: If Tim's students all had a hole in their game, it would be found and exploited at open tournaments, and presumably fixed. (Whether I will ever be good enough to place in a tournament is, of course, very debatable, but I have solid evidence that I'm at least getting good training -- the rest is up to me.)

It's been said before on these boards: Whether you ever plan to compete enough, only by practicing with people who do compete can you be sure of receiving instruction good enough for competitors.

**ADM** · Posted On: 7/08/2008 4:42pm

WorldWarCheese: Indeed that isn't bad, but wasn't that a competition? And also this guy doesn't spar from 6 - 18 months after starting :\

**ADM** · Posted On: 7/08/2008 4:44pm

Originally Posted by Petter

More than that. I've never yet competed in BJJ and will almost certainly never compete in kickboxing (too much of a pansy, I guess). However, because my kickboxing coach has competed, I know that he has the kind of skills that can be put in the ring. Because my BJJ instructor not only competes, but also produces students who compete successfully, I know that I receive training good enough to put winners on the mats (Tim can both do and teach). Competitive pressure prevents the teaching from getting inbred: If Tim's students all had a hole in their game, it would be found and exploited at open tournaments, and presumably fixed. (Whether I will ever be good enough to place in a tournament is, of course, very debatable, but I have solid evidence that I'm at least getting good training -- the rest is up to me.)

It's been said before on these boards: Whether you ever plan to compete enough, only by practicing with people who do compete can you be sure of receiving instruction good enough for competitors.

Very well written Sir, and I couldn't agree more. I'm not sure if I ever looked at it like that before. Pretty happy I train where I train then.

**foxguitar** · Posted On: 7/08/2008 6:07pm

Originally Posted by maofas

Fyi, Toyotaro Miyazaki (a Kenkojuku-lineage Shotokan Instructor) started an organization called the Int'l Shotokai Federation which might be responsible for some of the confusion as to whether Shotokai is Shotokan or a seperate style. In HIS case, he's teaching Shotokan and Shotokai is just the name of his organization.

Miyazaki Sensei , in his prime was unfricking believable one of the best Ive have seen .

he was a direct student of Okano sensei who studied under Funakoshi himself.

**mrgoshthereturn** · Posted On: 7/09/2008 12:51pm

sorry, didn't mean to start a lineage war. Just tihe point that shotokan and shotokai are different and have different philosophes about how to throw, punches and kicks, and so on... what loosk sloppy to a shotokan practisioner looks correct to a shotokai practicioner and what looks correct from shotokan's point of view looks rigid to a shotokai guy. my point originally was (reflecting back on the bullshido argument) that claiming the art is bullshido because you don't really understand the aims of the art is possibly down to mis-information.

And by the way i do agree that multi-style training is a good idea. That's why i cross train and am willing to go on the mat with pretty much anyone. But that's me not shotokai. Gotta ask though? Why the inevitable comparisons to BJJ and Judo? Both are very good grappling arts but if you were gonna compare skotokan/kai to other arts surely kyushinkai and muay thai would be more suiting (and i'm not saying it compares favourably, just it would be a more apt comparison)

**Petter** · Posted On: 7/09/2008 12:59pm

I compared it to BJJ instead of Kyokushin because I practice BJJ, but have never practiced Kyokushin. The points I made about training with competitors, etc., are exactly the same for any martial art -- any sport, in fact -- and using BJJ as my example allowed me to write the post without sounding tediously hypothetical.

**mrgoshthereturn** · Posted On: 7/09/2008 1:02pm

got ya....fair point then

**WorldWarCheese** · Posted On: 7/09/2008 1:21pm

sorry, didn't mean to start a lineage war.

Yes you did.

Why the inevitable comparisons to BJJ and Judo? Both are very good grappling arts but if you were gonna compare skotokan/kai to other arts surely kyushinkai and muay thai would be more suiting (and i'm not saying it compares favourably, just it would be a more apt comparison)

Because Jigoro Kano was the Second Coming, but even better because he wasn't a little bitch.

**mrgoshthereturn** · Posted On: 7/09/2008 1:35pm

LoL. First off, i am sarcastic but really, i don't care what art people study. Fair enough i do enjoy shotokai and don't think it's bullshido. As for Jigoro Kano? Umm who is he? What style did he do? Whats he got to do with whether shotokai is bullshido?