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  1. A.M. is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/05/2008 8:29pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel
    I'm no fan of fake histories, believe me, but I'm just being devil's advocate here.

    What happens when the person who *may* have lied about the history is dead, and his successor believed what he was told.

    This is the position where Hatsumi (ninja guy) is. He didn't come up with the story of the lineage. He got it from his teacher called Takamatsu, who is dead.

    What do we do in cases like this?
    That is indeed a gray area. I guest the only thing to do would be to show said person solid proof that their teacher lied to them. If they refuse to recognize the truth then you can put them at fault spreading lies. Also most of the time false histories usually correspond to bad techniques anyways. Thats the best answer I can come up with right now.

    You should also take into consideration that some students be signing up for classes based on the history of the martial art and/or school presented to them by the teacher. So in a way false histories are also false advertising wether the teacher knows it or not.
    Last edited by A.M.; 7/05/2008 8:33pm at .
  2. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/05/2008 11:07pm

    Join us... or die
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by A.M.
    most of the time false histories usually correspond to bad techniques
    This. Someone can be competent without having credentials, but the burden is on them to prove their competence. If someone knowingly lies about their credentials, they're a con artist and don't deserve any money or time. If someone unknowingly repeats false credentials, they're not a fraud, but it's their responsibility to honestly investigate questions raised, set the record straight based on what they discover, and prove their competence, usually by valid credentials.
  3. A.M. is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/05/2008 11:09pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRuss
    This. Someone can be competent without having credentials, but the burden is on them to prove their competence. If someone knowingly lies about their credentials, they're a con artist and don't deserve any money or time. If someone unknowingly repeats false credentials, they're not a fraud, but it's their responsibility to honestly investigate questions raised, set the record straight based on what they discover, and prove their competence, usually by valid credentials.
    Agreed. This would also mean it would be the teachers responsibility to figure what credentials (if any) the teacher who taught him the false history/lineage/credentials actually had. Once the teacher has done this he can correct his school's curriculum and also show that even though his teacher was a con he/she still has integraty.
    Last edited by A.M.; 7/05/2008 11:15pm at .
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/05/2008 11:12pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One of the things that helps is competition. If it turns out my style came from a fake master but, the people I trained place well that helps.

    I've always wondered if this led to the sudden surge in schools that were "to deadly" or "to secretive" to compete.
  5. Olorin is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/05/2008 11:45pm

    supporting memberhall of fame
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is a good idea to have some kind of format for investigation.

    Generally it should go something like this...

    Introduction:
    -name of the individual and general background
    -ranks, claims, fight record, etc.

    Body:
    -Brake down the claims into categories. And then provide evidence that disproves the claims.

    So, explain the claim, provide a link where they said it, and then provide evidence that disproves it. Do this with every claim you can disprove. Also include any evidence you find that supports their claims. If they claim to be a BB in Karate and are, then say so. This shows that your article is not simply an attack piece.

    Conclusion:
    -Restate your evidence and thesis.

    Its the same method used in writing any paper.

    Thesis, supporting evidence, conclusion.

    Some examples from **** I have done...

    Ray Ellingsen

    Harley Reagan
    Last edited by Olorin; 7/05/2008 11:48pm at .
  6. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2008 12:08am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake

    I've always wondered if this led to the sudden surge in schools that were "to deadly" or "to secretive" to compete.
    Possibly.

    But consider that Japanese koryu schools are among the most legitimate (in terms of history and lineage), but most of them claim to be too deadly to spar or compete.
  7. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2008 12:33am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel
    But consider that Japanese koryu schools are among the most legitimate (in terms of history and lineage), but most of them claim to be too deadly to spar or compete.
    To be facetious, the Daughters of the American Revolution have unimpeachable history and lineage, but they wouldn't be my first choice for martial art training.

    The legitimacy of a discipline is entirely summed up by how effectively it does what it claims to do. Lineage and history are useful if they provide a track record of success, but extraordinary claims (like "too deadly") require extraordinary proof, and the proof is in the pudding.
  8. Judah Maccabee is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2008 12:56am

    supporting memberhall of fameBullshido Newbie
     Style: Krav / (Kick)Boxing / BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Formal investigation standards have long been bandied about.

    If someone doesn't want to do a full-on write-up, we can do a collaborative effort through the Bullshido wiki (www.bullshido.org).
    Last edited by Judah Maccabee; 7/06/2008 10:32am at .
  9. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2008 4:40am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When does the "statute of limitations" run out for a fake lineage?

    For example, the Wing Chun origin story, with Ng Mui and all that crap, is pretty much a nonsense story.

    If teachers today continue to promulgate that story, are they guilty of fraud in any way?

    How many generations of a fake lineage does it take before the current guy can be considered "blameless"?
  10. A.M. is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2008 11:05am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel
    When does the "statute of limitations" run out for a fake lineage?

    For example, the Wing Chun origin story, with Ng Mui and all that crap, is pretty much a nonsense story.

    If teachers today continue to promulgate that story, are they guilty of fraud in any way?

    How many generations of a fake lineage does it take before the current guy can be considered "blameless"?
    I think that Ng Mui story would fall into the category of myth. Like how tengu are suppose to have taught ninja.

    As long as it is recognized as a myth/or piece of folklore you can't really hold it aganist them. A myth isn't a lie but a myth also isn't really history.
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