Thread: Holding kicks out...
12/03/2003 9:29am, #21
12/03/2003 10:08am, #22Question:
I practice karate and my teacher can lift a leg and hold it steady above his shoulder. Will your static active flexibility exercises let me achieve this type of strength so I can kick higher and with more power?
Yes and no. Static active flexibility exercises will help to develop your ability to lift and hold the leg but not to make your kicks more powerful. Specific strength for a kicker is the strength that lets one pack a wallop in a kick, not to hold a leg up! Specific strength for kicking is developed by kicking a heavy bag, kicking into layers of sponge, kicking with bungee cords attached to legs, and other dynamic exercises similar to kicking. Strength, just like flexibility, is specific to the speed of movement, its angle, and range of motion (McArdle, Katch and Katch 1991).
Thomas Kurz M.Sc.
It seems that, as with endurance, strength and speed training, flexibility training follows the specificity principle. This means that if you want to improve your ability to actively move through a full ROM, then active and ballistic mobility exercises, and not static stretching, are the answer. This supports the use of exercises employed by swimmers and runners during their warm-up routines, such as shoulder circles, bum kicks and high-knee skips. These exercises actively take the joints through their available ROM and thus help to prepare them and the muscles to be more pliable during the subsequent activity.
2-3 seconds of hold should be fine, if you REALLY INSIST on doing this. But the pros seem to say that you should be moving through the entire thing in order to maintain the correct movement and support dynamics.Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
12/03/2003 10:11am, #23
uh, try a different move when he is rushing you
or weight training, polymetrics and bag work to kick harderSurfing Facebook at work? Spread the good word by adding us on Facebook today! https://www.facebook.com/Bullshido
12/03/2003 11:06pm, #24
- Join Date
- Mar 2003
- angola, ny
- Liu Seong Gung Fu
I do them as a warm-up and often mix them in with shadowboxing, especially if i am working on a particular movement/kick.
and how on earth can these not be sport specific? .....they are KICKS. slow kicks, extended and held to build strength and balance. they help to refine biomechanics and posture.
My Teacher says, "If you cant do it slow, then you cant do if fast."
There is a great benefit to be had from microanalysis in slow motion.
Do you execute these with dynamic tension? (gradually escalating muscular contraction coordinated with exhalation..ala sanchin)
this is a type of stretch. It is not for explosiveness or power. Mostly balance, flexibility, and hip strength. I am sure you are aware, at least somewhat, of CMA internal theory. It is founded on a vertical alignment of the body, i.e. " keep the shoulders level and the back straight.". There are quite a few guidelines or rules that are designed basically to maximize biomechanics. Many of the training drills/excersises take a lengthy training period to master. the body has to be built up in order to perform to specifications. this kicking drill CAN PUT ALOT OF STRESS ON THE LOWER BACK, and has to be worked up to. the next stage of the drill is even more extreme. keeping the leg extended, do a full single leg squat, ass to achilles, and then press back up. i have seen about five people that can do this ( i am one of them). and this part can be bad for your knees.
to do this, you must have very strong legs and hips.
here is comparison i heard once that i think is relevant.
In Indonesian arts, natural body weaponry is used. Elbows, knees, and heels are favored because they are strong and hard. In contrast, many chinese systems require the training of body parts that are not natural weapons, like fists. people may argue and say a fist is natural, but just reference all the threads discussing how to punch properly, and then tell me how natural it is. In chinese systems, the body is conditioned through rigourous training to have a superior condition, allowing actions that a weaker, untrained person could not manage.
Your grandma could use Silat, but not Kuntao.
Kuntao has much more power that Silat does, due to the rigourous training and vertical alignment principles.
you know Wastrel, when i think about someone damaging their lower back doing this, i agree in principle, but in reality most guys cant hold their leg higher than their knee anyways. The people that can actually do it well are more than strong enough and well aligned to protect the lower back. I can easily hold my leg extended in front heel kick postion, toes curled back and leg at 90 degrees to the ground , for 30 seconds, and there is absolutely no stress on my lower back or pelvis. It is primarily in my quadricep. ( i know cause i just did... cramped the fucker alittle actually). In anycase i the longest i generally hold this is for 15 seconds.
all this rambling has brought me to this question.
I have been doing leg excercises since i was very young. do you think perhaps that only people such as myself, who have been doing it for a long time, and especially in formative/growth stages should attempt such excersises? seriously, i is not problem for me....child's play. but i have seen others have extreme difficulty with this.
Here is another element as well. despite not having engaged in a regular stretch routine in over ten years, i have retained an amazing degree of flexibility. i can easily touch my forehead to my knees in standard stretches. it seem to me that in certain directions i am 'perma-stretched'. i seem not to lose this flexibility, and if i do feel tight i just stretch for a bit and i am back to normal. I think it has something to do with my tendons and ligaments.
12/03/2003 11:10pm, #25
When you move your limbs too slowly, muscle recruitment is actually entirely different. Try it and pay close attention to the difference. You'll see what I mean.
I see your point. But please, let's not wave our hands and dispense with a sports medicine consensus because we have a personal experience that differs. I used to do it. Thought it was good. I've never been injured because of it, but...Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
12/03/2003 11:36pm, #26
- Join Date
- Mar 2003
- angola, ny
- Liu Seong Gung Fu
I see what you mean...it is not a kick, per se. I never really analyzed the muscular action that much. it is different, and i must agree that is definately not the same as kicking 'at speed'.
Ive done a shitload of isotonics/waidan excersises over time, and the drill being discussed in this thread is just one of many that i have done. this is often combined with the slow movements.
One consideration that hasn't been mentioned is whether or not these types of excercises cause delayed damage which is revealed later. there are many warnings in tma about injuries and such 'resurfacing' in old age. that is potential concern of mine
as well, our system has a very rigourous leg training system. chinese tma often has some pretty severe practices, the basic sitting horse being one of them and the most well known, but in silat you go much lower, and raise and lower yourself in addition. It is part of the specialization of the style.
I cannot dismiss the evidence of sports-medicine, but nor can i dismiss my own personal experience.
but in the overall, I concede....
KIDS, DONT TRY THIS AT HOME
*Wastrel for Moderator*
12/03/2003 11:38pm, #27
I SANK YOUR BATTLESHIP!!Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
12/04/2003 7:44pm, #28
IMO, holding your leg out at the end of kicks, helps you hold your leg out at the end of kicks and not much else. It is primarily a palor trick.
Does anyone train their punches by holding their arms out at length until they can't do it anymore? Seriously? If not, then why would the legs be any different?
It is my belief that the sense of balance you get from doing a excerise like this does not transfer into the realm of combat. It is static balance, where combat is entriely dynamic. You would be much better off working a drill where your balance point rapidly and drastically changes like jumping from one foot to another like on plum poles, having someone push you with your eyes close and try to recover, or any active drill where you try to stay on your feet as someone tries to unbalance you.
12/04/2003 8:00pm, #29
- Join Date
- Mar 2003
- angola, ny
- Liu Seong Gung Fu
same here. to my knowledge, with the addition of the isometics it is called a PNF stretch, cant remeber what it means. been a long time since i was actively studying along those lines.
I have to disagree. clever analogy, but holding out the leg is much more difficult. there is a correspondance, but...
I have always found great value in slow training. It allows me the time to absorb feedback and learn the intricacies of any given movement. the result is always increased speed, efficiency, and power.
Most martial artists rush through their techniques, using speed and muscular power to compensate for incorrect distance, coordination, timing, ... bad technique in other words. In fact, the majority of them are probabaly woefully ignorant of even the existance of such considerations.
guys do fast training with no slow-down analysis and the tendancy is for them to fall apart under pressure.
One of my favorite quotes.
" Postural inadequacies are magnified by momentum." -P. Ralston
Static training has its place. it is like most things, it must be in proper proportion. Misuse lies the over or under doing.
Last edited by IndoChinese; 12/04/2003 8:05pm at .