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  1. Judo Mofo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/01/2008 5:18pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Did you notice the ten seconds before he got clinched?
    It was more like 5 seconds. And less in the second, IIRC. At any rate, I didn't say 100% of the time, I said 99%. So, I fail to see how you addressed my point that the amount of time he spent bouncing around like a "lol, Karate" guy wasn't really much of a factor.

    The last (and I mean it probably won't happen again) time I tapped one of the pro-fighters at my gym it was with a guillotine from half-guard, with an arm in.
    Seems like we have two basic choices here. Either Daniel is good enough at grappling that he made a legit attempt to get a sub when not in the better and more accepted dominant position, or he doesn't really know what he's doing on the ground and just tried to crank a crappy headlock without really understanding that the position he was in was going to make it extremely difficult to get a legit choke. Based on his performance in the rest of the fight, which do you think is more likely?
  2. Valiss is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/01/2008 5:26pm


     Style: Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judo Mofo
    Seems like we have two basic choices here. Either Daniel is good enough at grappling that he made a legit attempt to get a sub when not in the better and more accepted dominant position, or he doesn't really know what he's doing on the ground and just tried to crank a crappy headlock without really understanding that the position he was in was going to make it extremely difficult to get a legit choke. Based on his performance in the rest of the fight, which do you think is more likely?
    The worst part was since that happened at the begining of the match, it made some of us think that maybe he had spent an hour or two on the mat. The next 2 minutes showed us otherwise.
  3. Judo Mofo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/01/2008 5:28pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey Valiss, FYI I dig your info on the WCL. Thanks for posting updates about it.
  4. MacWombat is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/01/2008 10:03pm


     Style: Relson GJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judo Mofo
    It was more like 5 seconds. And less in the second, IIRC. At any rate, I didn't say 100% of the time, I said 99%. So, I fail to see how you addressed my point that the amount of time he spent bouncing around like a "lol, Karate" guy wasn't really much of a factor.

    Of course the factor was that he got beat by clinch and groundwork, but he didn't see that coming before the fight. He's supposedly good at stand-up and none of his WCL experience would make one think that he wouldn't suck at grappling. However, his 5-10 seconds of stand up looked exactly like a lol krotty fighter's stance. He also got caught with a right hook in the second right before getting clinched.

    The majority of the fight was straight out of UFC 1-5. My point was that they kept saying he had extensive kickboxing experience but I was wondering if that extended past the WCL where many other sport karate fighters are and I wouldn't be shocked if it didn't due to his stance and hand position in this fight.
    I think only idiots assume that someone who trains for the ring can't make the switch to the street as soon as things change. - dweidman
  5. Valiss is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/01/2008 10:50pm


     Style: Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well as I stated before, Strikeforce said he was 18-0 WCL and 16-0 kickboxing. But without some kind of kickboxing fight finder, it's hard to validate his fights ouside of the WCL.
  6. MacWombat is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2008 12:19am


     Style: Relson GJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So they are implying that the 16-0 is not part of the WCL? It's not like they are saying he's 16-0 in kickboxing 15 of which were in the WCL (and the other was in K-1 or whatever you said) and 2 were not really kickboxing right? What is the WCL considered as a sport?
  7. Valiss is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2008 9:47am


     Style: Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MacWombat
    So they are implying that the 16-0 is not part of the WCL? It's not like they are saying he's 16-0 in kickboxing 15 of which were in the WCL (and the other was in K-1 or whatever you said) and 2 were not really kickboxing right? What is the WCL considered as a sport?
    Well without going back and re-watching what they posted on the screen before the fight, I believe they were stating two separate records: a WCL record (18-0) and a kickboxing record (16-0). Perhaps because the WCL has some different rules than traditional kickboxing that they separated the two, I'm not really sure. Otherwise I guess they would have said he's 34-0 if that is the case. I don't really know too much about Daniels before he entered the WCL aside from his K-1 stint and I can't find any website so far that has a list of kickboxing records.

    Edit: Looks as though he fought Bryson Kamaka at a kickboxing match at Strikeforce back in 2006. Kickboxing Message Board - Raymond Daniels makes Kickboxing debut October 13th
    Last edited by Valiss; 7/02/2008 9:58am at .
  8. Judo Mofo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2008 11:58am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Of course the factor was that he got beat by clinch and groundwork, but he didn't see that coming before the fight.
    That's what I'm sayin'.

    However, his 5-10 seconds of stand up looked exactly like a lol krotty fighter's stance. He also got caught with a right hook in the second right before getting clinched.
    I'm not denying his stand up looked bad too. But I don't think you can ascribe it to "lol, karate" based on the little we saw. I mean, he makes that stuff work in the WCL against people with boxing, international rules kickboxing and mma experience. So, it's too soon to say whether or not his striking will translate to MMA because he was so taken out of his game by clinch and groundwork.
  9. Valiss is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2008 1:06pm


     Style: Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judo Mofo
    I'm not denying his stand up looked bad too. But I don't think you can ascribe it to "lol, karate" based on the little we saw. I mean, he makes that stuff work in the WCL against people with boxing, international rules kickboxing and mma experience. So, it's too soon to say whether or not his striking will translate to MMA because he was so taken out of his game by clinch and groundwork.
    I wonder if the dynamics of the cage make a difference for a guy like Daniels in terms of his striking (distance and timing). Watching his WCL stuff on youtube, it's appearant that the fancier kicks require a lot of room to work. How big is the Strikeforce cage? The wikipedia says the WCL ring is 27 feet in diameter (but it looks bigger to me on TV) and the UFC octogan is 32 feet in diameter. I know when I stepped into a cage for the first time it seemed smaller to me that I thought it would. Maybe that was just the nature of having a fence around you though.

    Also, he has a hit-and-run style of fighting where he keeps his distance; goes in quick with a couple of strikes and then moves outside. He doesn't stay inside for any amount of time for the most part. Judging from the way he composed himself when the bell rang at Strikeforce, I'd be willing to bet that he was going to try to fight the same way he does in the WCL and maybe even assumed (stupidly) Metcalfe would stand with him.
  10. MacWombat is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/02/2008 6:28pm


     Style: Relson GJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judo Mofo
    That's what I'm sayin'.



    I'm not denying his stand up looked bad too. But I don't think you can ascribe it to "lol, karate" based on the little we saw. I mean, he makes that stuff work in the WCL against people with boxing, international rules kickboxing and mma experience. So, it's too soon to say whether or not his striking will translate to MMA because he was so taken out of his game by clinch and groundwork.
    I think we can ascribe the stance to lol karate whether his stand-up is good, bad, or unproven in MMA. It's true he could have been keeping his hands low because it would have made sprawling and defending the shot easier, but based on the lack of experience exhibited in the other grappling areas, probably not.
    I think only idiots assume that someone who trains for the ring can't make the switch to the street as soon as things change. - dweidman
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