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  1. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/16/2014 12:52pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    International Wushu Sanda Federation video(s)

    Highlights from this 80s CMA fight tournament video have been going around for ages, but it finally showed up with some more context:



    The came channel also has a large of number of more modern san da videos, like:


    (san da has come a long way)
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  2. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/18/2014 5:41pm

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    Very interesting stuff. The change from no pads to pads made for a much more slug-fest oriented type of match. Looks more like kick boxing with grappling now.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  3. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/19/2014 5:04am


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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Very interesting stuff. The change from no pads to pads made for a much more slug-fest oriented type of match. Looks more like kick boxing with grappling now.
    Here's the highlight reel from 1986 that I mentioned in the previous post, which most CMA people have already seen:



    The striking is mostly bad to mediocre, but the takedowns are pretty good. I think this is mainly because before safety gear it was harder to spar striking "alive" compared to takedowns. Modern gear allowed them to use improved training methods, which led in turn to a much higher quality of fighter.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  4. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/19/2014 5:12am


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    Some more footage (the first take down is very nice):

    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  5. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/19/2014 8:46am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    The striking is mostly bad to mediocre, but the takedowns are pretty good. I think this is mainly because before safety gear it was harder to spar striking "alive" compared to takedowns. Modern gear allowed them to use improved training methods, which led in turn to a much higher quality of fighter.
    i also think that there is a fairly wide range of skill on that platform, leading to some mismatches. some of the guys up there look like they had never been hit with a solid strike before, which may have also had the effect of making their opponents look better than they really were. (i'm thinking that the KO at 20 seconds of the short HL clip is an example that could be impressive power or just a glass jaw.)

    likewise some of them had no shuai jiao, so the throws were spectacular, as they can often be against noobs.

    thanks for finding the extended footage, i have wanted to see more and get more info for a long time, since seeing those short highlights.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
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  6. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/19/2014 10:48am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    Some more footage (the first take down is very nice):

    The older stuff looks so much more "kung fu-ish", if you get my meaning. The new stuff just looks like kick boxing with take-downs, and the takedowns were much more "wrestling -like" (single and double legs, and what we would call sukui nage in Judo).

    So how much does the sanda have to evolve before it's not really chinese MA anymore and just kickboxing with takedowns but no groundwork?

    I'm not being critical, just curious.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  7. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/19/2014 3:56pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    The older stuff looks so much more "kung fu-ish", if you get my meaning. The new stuff just looks like kick boxing with take-downs, and the takedowns were much more "wrestling -like" (single and double legs, and what we would call sukui nage in Judo).

    So how much does the sanda have to evolve before it's not really chinese MA anymore and just kickboxing with takedowns but no groundwork?

    I'm not being critical, just curious.
    Remember there is Sanda/San Shou and there is sanda/san da/san shou and sometimes you will see one, or other, or even both in a video. The former has (for the most part) a distinct look and feel to it that may not seem "Chinese", the latter often does have those elements to it, but can easily be mistaken for the first (especially when used correctly..punch is a punch kick is kick throw is a throw BS etc).

    Sanda (big S) has no groundwork because of its military origins and the original standup-oriented systems used to develop it, and it is as much Russian as it is Chinese. It's a simplification/reduction of older complex systems, designed for compatibility with similar non-Chinese systems (namely those of their allies).

    sanda (little s) is a little different as close to traditional "kung fu fighting" as you're going to see in 2014, which means it will vary greatly depending on the underlying arts that practice san da along with various other elements. Many CMA schools do NOT practice san da the way Ming, Jack, or myself would approve of.

    I think this is why Sanda videos tend to be more uniform with less variation than the san da stuff on the lei tai (where you get not only wide variation in techniques, but even wider variation in skill levels).

    I think we're all pretty much in agreement that when in either Sanda or san da people try to imitate fist sets or show off stances instead of actually apply techniques, it looks ridiculous to the trained eye.
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 8/19/2014 4:02pm at .
  8. Permalost is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/19/2014 5:30pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Quote Originally Posted by W. Rabbit View Post
    Remember there is Sanda/San Shou and there is sanda/san da/san shou and sometimes you will see one, or other, or even both in a video. The former has (for the most part) a distinct look and feel to it that may not seem "Chinese", the latter often does have those elements to it, but can easily be mistaken for the first (especially when used correctly..punch is a punch kick is kick throw is a throw BS etc).

    Sanda (big S) has no groundwork because of its military origins and the original standup-oriented systems used to develop it, and it is as much Russian as it is Chinese. It's a simplification/reduction of older complex systems, designed for compatibility with similar non-Chinese systems (namely those of their allies).

    sanda (little s) is a little different as close to traditional "kung fu fighting" as you're going to see in 2014, which means it will vary greatly depending on the underlying arts that practice san da along with various other elements. Many CMA schools do NOT practice san da the way Ming, Jack, or myself would approve of.

    I think this is why Sanda videos tend to be more uniform with less variation than the san da stuff on the lei tai (where you get not only wide variation in techniques, but even wider variation in skill levels).

    I think we're all pretty much in agreement that when in either Sanda or san da people try to imitate fist sets or show off stances instead of actually apply techniques, it looks ridiculous to the trained eye.
    I understand your point, but can you give a source for the capitalization being the difference? Seems a little suspect given Chinese scripts' lack of capitalization.
  9. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/19/2014 10:00pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    I understand your point, but can you give a source for the capitalization being the difference? Seems a little suspect given Chinese scripts' lack of capitalization.
    Noun vs. verb, really. Sanda as a proper noun is a 20th century thing, san da as a verb is ancient.
  10. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/20/2014 4:02am


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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    So how much does the sanda have to evolve before it's not really chinese MA anymore and just kickboxing with takedowns but no groundwork?
    There are some techniques that are more common in CMA -- for example, certain kinds of long hooking punch and a number of kick catch takedowns, like the ones you see in this video:



    ... but mostly punches, kicks and throws are just going to look like punches, kicks and throws. Fighting looks like fighting, and if the movements look overly stylized when they're applied it's usually an indication that the fighter was badly trained.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
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