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  1. promteh is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2008 8:29am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Systema

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    Kadochnikov & Embodying Bio-mechanics of Martial Arts

    I have been fascinated by the research work initiated by Kadochnikov in Russia regarding the bio-mechanical efficiency study of movement applied to Martial Arts.

    My understanding (as a newbie to this) is that the focus of such an approach is to find the most effective, efficient, least energy-consuming ways/techniques/body movement principles to attack and defend yourself.

    Therefore, bio-mechanics of MA movement is applicable to any Martial Arts, and perhaps already embedded in many MA's.

    Unfortunately, there are only a handful of practitioners in U.S. teach about such a science. To my knowledge, such a scientific approach are embedded in the following arts (please add your own):
    • Kadochnikov System
    • R.O.S.S.
    • Pramek
    There may be others of course... since this thread!

    In your studies, what MA's have you come across that explicitly or implicitly embed a bio-mechanical efficiency approach.


    I believe the principles of bio-mechanical efficiency is not limited to MA and may have application in health and body movements (for instance how to reduce lower-back stress for many patients of back pain, or reduce body over-compensation because of mis-aligned movements that will favor one over the other side of the body).

    What are your thoughts? What is your experience with any of these if you have had the fortune of having a teacher in them? :icon_cool
    Last edited by promteh; 6/25/2008 8:39am at .
  2. Kaoz is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2008 8:39am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TKD, BJJ, MMA

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    I bet with a little looking you'd have found a better forum for this.
  3. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2008 8:57am

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     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    I'm pretty sure in the US it is called Kinesiology.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesiology

    Kinesiology is actually pretty popular and common place. Almost all Physical Education majors and coaches have taken courses in it. I know its not crazy Russian science but its the same stuff and far easier to access.
  4. SFGOON is offline
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    and humble, too!

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2008 10:20am


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

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    Wrong forum hoss, this would likely belong in the physical training thread.

    Anyway, the Russian "system" is based on different premises than kinesiology because Russians have different assumptions about how the body works. Kinesiology views the body as a series of levers, while Russians tend to focus on the psychological aspects of movement. Weird? Yeah, but for a lot of idiots it works very well. I am one such idiot.

    When you take a reductionist biomechanical approach to MA based off a vapid examination of the human body as a bunch of bendy bits with muscles, you get...

    ?ing ?un, and we all know how that worked out.

    (No one's saying that kinesiology sucks, but how many MA "masters" do you think really have a good enough grasp of the science to use it in the development of techniques?)

    Russian Martial Arts, and physical culture in general, tend to emphasize relaxation aided by developing good breathing habits, strength enhanced by good posture, and maintaining an optimistic mental outlook to avoid panic which would **** up all of the above. Ryabko's systema also tosses continuous movement in there - as a way of keeping the engagement "live."

    So basically, if you stay chill you'll move a lot better and not burn as much energy puckering your asshole - especially as a beginner. Unfortunately, most guys have spent most of their lives being wrapped around the axel over some dumb **** and need a lot of training before they "get it." In that respect, learning to relax and taking conscious control over your tension levels will get you a lot further in terms of biomechanical efficiency than studying basic physics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    You sound like a foaming-at-the-mouth-loon out of Dr. Strangelove.
    Sometimes, we put Ricin in the Cocaine. :ninja7:
  5. WhiteShark is offline
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    1% Shark is better than you.

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2008 10:56am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I will never believe that the Russian aspect of this **** is even remotely unique. I guess I've been exposed to a lot better coaching than most of the people on this site. Everything you guys say sounds like my track, pole vaulting and swimming coaches except a lot less specific. I guess if you were never on a team with really good conditioning and technique coaches this might sound novel but it just isn't.

    As far as MA goes I can't even count the number of times my Kickboxing and Jiu-jitsu coaches have told me to relax. Or my favorite quote from my first Muay Thai coach, "Don't be monkey, be like water."
  6. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2008 12:01pm

    Join us... or die
     

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    Instead of looking at disciplines one can look at specific innovators. For example Arthur Lessac applies many of the same ideas of relaxation and breathing to training singers. Doron Navone (spelling?) applies body mechanics and feldencrize to Ninpo stuff to great effect. There are people who have the gift of understanding body mechanics in a lot of arts.

    Any academic discipline while helpful is constrained because it must by necesssity be conservative in its approach. A lot of kinestetics people are brilliant but the actual discipline moves slowly, like all scientific endevours.
  7. D Dempsey is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2008 1:07pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFGOON
    Wrong forum hoss, this would likely belong in the physical training thread.

    Anyway, the Russian "system" is based on different premises than kinesiology because Russians have different assumptions about how the body works. Kinesiology views the body as a series of levers, while Russians tend to focus on the psychological aspects of movement. Weird? Yeah, but for a lot of idiots it works very well. I am one such idiot.
    I'm going to disagree with you here. Ryabko system might not focus on kinesiology but Kadochnikov's most certainly does as does R.O.S.S. and is very little emphasis on breathing or psychology.
  8. promteh is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2008 1:17pm

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     Style: Systema

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    Below is an excerpt of an interview with Matt Powell describing Kadochnikov's System:

    "…For example, in combat we only want to use 25% of our available bioenergy. In studies in Russia, they found that Kadochnikov's students only use ¼ of their energy, occasionally using more (Only when we must do we use more, let's say 50%, but only for short periods.) At 25% of our available bioenergy we are operating at an optimal level. How is this done? How is this efficiency created? Think of a car…2 tons of steel which one must control. First, the car must be started and the engine must run, which is using numerous sets of machines to do the job and use energy to make the car move. Then, we simply take hold of the steering wheel, press the gas, and use these machines in order to steer the car. Once the car is in motion, it is very easy to control through the use of machines. It is the same with an opponent…he does all the work and then we control, or "steer," the work as we wish. In being efficient, and using machines of efficiency while working with an opponent, we are able to use very little energy, yet achieve the maximum result.

    By studying the human body, one begins to view the human body as one machine. We view combat between people as machines creating work, which creates energy and power, which is ours to direct as we wish. Our own body is a machine. Let's say the other machine is another human, an enemy. Psychologically, we must remove emotion and association and think of this other person as merely another "machine," subject to the laws of nature just as anything else. The enemy is just as uncertain as you, and is subject to fear, gravity, laws of physics, pain, etc . Let's say we are locked in combat with this other person, who we now view as another biomechanical kinematic structure.

    When we are locked in combat, we are creating energy which can be used to our advantage. As we push, pull, strike, grab, etc., we are creating energy from the work that is done. An example is if you are grabbed by the wrist. It is much easier to create a fulcrum to break the lock than it is to jerk or move in an inefficient way to get away from this grab. The fulcrum is efficient, a jerk or strained pull, even many strikes, are inefficient and waste vital energy.

    When we use this machine (the fulcrum), we then create more machines to do work. If we were to jerk away, we would use energy and then be out of contact; if we were to use certain strikes, we would use energy and break contact…both of these avenues mean we must reengage to begin the process again. So, we create a fulcrum by means of the biomechanical structures, such as the entire arm. It is almost like a cycle…we are constantly creating machines to create efficient work, and we dictate the power and direction of these machines.

    I am often asked how it is possible that we only use 25% of our available energy. To give an idea first, we must exist in efficiency…in our movement, we use all of our 256 extents of freedom…our muscles are relaxed, we are acting in an autonomic state, our breathing is controlled and monitored, etc. In other words, our machine is working efficiently. Then, we begin to monitor our opponent. We avoid impact (through a knowledge of physics and mechanics), as impact breaks down machines…

    if one is injured, he must use more energy to compensate for the injury. By avoiding impact, we are constantly setting up our opponent to move in such a way that he will follow a plane and go into a spin which will bring him down (for example, a helix motion). We control our opponent and maintain zero relative speed to achieve non-impacting contact and use his movement and inefficiency against him, so that he will be the one who is using energy and he will be using that energy to lose."
  9. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2008 1:20pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Moved to PT forum.
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2008 4:22pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Obviously, all efficient MAs/fighting styles make use of efficient biomechanics, including leverage, muscular eutony, etc. The human animal being what it is, yes, psychology has a major impact on how well an individual can employ "tactical biomechanics", especially in a chaotic, high-pressure scenario.

    Whether a MA includes the formal study of biomechanics at the academic/intellectual level is another matter; Kadochnikov is known for it, perhaps reflecting his professional background as an engineer, whereas Ryabko and Vasiliev take a more intuitive approach to teaching/training similar skills.
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