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  1. shogunlotus is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/16/2008 9:26pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    tang soo do, tae bong soo do, tkd

    does anyone know the difference?

    in my area there are tons and tons and tons of tang soo do and tae bong soo do schools.
    and i have to say i'm not too impressed. i sparred a couple 2 dans and i wasnt too impressed.

    are these styles pretty much the same as tkd or are they completely different?
  2. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/16/2008 10:46pm

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My understanding is that Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do are offshoots of Shotokan, either separately or off of one another.

    Never heard of Tae Bong Soo Do. What do the instructors at these places say their history is? Granted, history is usually mangled the worst by practitioners of the art being discussed...

    It's also my understanding that Korean MA are generally (as in, totally...) Japanese-based, and as prone as the Japanese to offshootery (Shotokan begat Tang Soo Do begat Soo Bahk Do begat...). Kata and historical analysis bears this out, and it isn't meant to dispute skill or ability yadda yadda yadda...
  3. ToUnderstand is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2008 9:13am


     Style: TaeKwonDo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2
    My understanding is that Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do are offshoots of Shotokan, either separately or off of one another.

    Never heard of Tae Bong Soo Do. What do the instructors at these places say their history is? Granted, history is usually mangled the worst by practitioners of the art being discussed...

    It's also my understanding that Korean MA are generally (as in, totally...) Japanese-based, and as prone as the Japanese to offshootery (Shotokan begat Tang Soo Do begat Soo Bahk Do begat...). Kata and historical analysis bears this out, and it isn't meant to dispute skill or ability yadda yadda yadda...
    yeah i beg to differ not all korean martial arts have japanese influence ok...
    also i am not positive but i believe your assumption that tang soo do and tae kwon do are false. some of the kwans may have had shotokan influence but do believe okinawan karate plays a part as well in the formation of what is now taekwondo and tang soo do. it is also to my knowledge that GM hwang kee(sp) training in chinese martial arts while in manchuria...

    also i can name several martial arts in korea that i highly doubt have japanese roots, such a gicheon, shin sun do, ssireum and traditional korean archery practice.
  4. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/17/2008 10:09am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    1point2, you are posting in the Korean Martial Arts forum. Please read the guidelines before further posting. They are stickied at the top of the forum & labelled "Sit Down & Listen".
  5. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/17/2008 10:12am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ShogunLotus,

    Dangsudo is Korean Karate, derived from one of the post-Occupation Gwan. The majority of Dangsudo taught in the US is derived from the Mudeokgwan, while the Mudeokgwan proper today teaches Subakdo.

    I have never heard of Taebongsudo, do you have a website?
  6. retrograde is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2008 10:13am


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, not all Korean MA have Japanese roots. Yes, most of the ones at your local American mcdojang do.

    To give an incredibly rough guide - because explanations of taekwondo/tangsoodo/kongsoodo have been given a million times on this board before - tang soo do is essentially the Korean name for karate. This is what the original kwans taught: karate. Which they called 'tang soo do' (or kong soo do depending on what time they learnt karate in Japan, which I'm presuming is the 'bong soo do' you refer to). In the mid-50s or early 60s (depending on who you ask), a bunch of the kwans started using the name 'taekwondo'. Some groups didn't (most notably a chunk of the moodukkwan and I think the jidokwan also splintered on this issue, too), and they still use tang soo do. Most taekwondo organisations (such as the ITF and WTF) has changed somewhat since then. I have no idea if tang soo do has changed significantly, but it's probably fair to say:

    Tang soo do = Korean karate closer to what was being taught in Korea pre-1960s
    Taekwondo = Evolved from Korean karate. Different organisations and clubs have changed to greater or lesser degrees.

    So to answer the OP's question: tang soo do isn't necessarily the same as taekwondo these days, but it's close in a lot of cases. They at least do different forms.

    ToUnderstand: Most of the kwans had a shotokan basis. The one exception would be the YMCA Kwonbop bu, whose founder Yun Buyng-In studied Shudokan, although was also said to have trained a lot with Sang Sup Chun (who founded the Yun Moo Kwan/Jidokwan), who studied shotokan, so there must have at least been some influence. I personally have little idea how similar or different shotokan and shudokan are. Wikipedia tells me that Kanken Toyama pretty much trained alongside Funakoshi, though.

    Hwang Kee claimed to have studied Okinawan karate from books, but there is no evidence. His claims of having studied kung fu are also considered pretty spurious. Generally, Hwang Kee is considered a bit of a BS artist. Regardless, he taught shotokan kata.

    I think it's accurate to say that tang soo do/taekwondo derived from shotokan karate.
    Last edited by retrograde; 6/17/2008 10:15am at .
  7. kanegs is online now

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    Posted On:
    6/17/2008 6:24pm

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     Style: Se-Jong TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    With a little google-fu I found: http://www.mastersandchampions.com/taebongsoodo.shtml
    Tae Bong Soo Do is a highly diversified modern eclectic martial art, which combines the best attributes of several defensive systems. The style is designed to be artistic as well as practical, based mainly on the scientific principles of physics. It.s an effective style for self-defense, competition, or merely an expression of art.

    The main influential sources combined to develop Tae Bong Soo Do include: 1) Korean kicking and hand strikes derived from Tae Kwon Do; 2) Filipino trapping and stick fighting derived from Modern Arnis and Escrima; 3) punching, footwork and body mechanics of boxing; and 4) locking, throwing, and grappling techniques derived from Judo and Ju-jitsu.
    Looking further at their site: http://www.mastersandchampions.com/aboutus.shtml
    Masters & Champions Martial Arts was originally founded in 1990 by Master B.K. Hintz a 5th Degree Black belt in International/World Tae Kwon-Do. Who.s instructor is 9th Degree Black belt Master Eugene A Humesky, founder of Universal Tae Kwon-Do Brotherhood. Master Hintz opened the school under the name of Grand Blanc Tae Kwon Do Academy. At the time the style of International Tae Kwon-Do was the primary style taught. In 1994 The Style Tae Bong Soo-Do was formed.
    There are more goodies in there ($50 testing fee, etc.) and
    Masters & Champions was the first club in Michigan to become a member of NAPMA (National Association of Professional Martial Artists).
    Google didn't turn up anythings else about "Master B.K. Hintz".
  8. ToUnderstand is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/18/2008 8:36am


     Style: TaeKwonDo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by retrograde
    No, not all Korean MA have Japanese roots. Yes, most of the ones at your local American mcdojang do.

    To give an incredibly rough guide - because explanations of taekwondo/tangsoodo/kongsoodo have been given a million times on this board before - tang soo do is essentially the Korean name for karate. This is what the original kwans taught: karate. Which they called 'tang soo do' (or kong soo do depending on what time they learnt karate in Japan, which I'm presuming is the 'bong soo do' you refer to). In the mid-50s or early 60s (depending on who you ask), a bunch of the kwans started using the name 'taekwondo'. Some groups didn't (most notably a chunk of the moodukkwan and I think the jidokwan also splintered on this issue, too), and they still use tang soo do. Most taekwondo organisations (such as the ITF and WTF) has changed somewhat since then. I have no idea if tang soo do has changed significantly, but it's probably fair to say:

    Tang soo do = Korean karate closer to what was being taught in Korea pre-1960s
    Taekwondo = Evolved from Korean karate. Different organisations and clubs have changed to greater or lesser degrees.

    So to answer the OP's question: tang soo do isn't necessarily the same as taekwondo these days, but it's close in a lot of cases. They at least do different forms.

    ToUnderstand: Most of the kwans had a shotokan basis. The one exception would be the YMCA Kwonbop bu, whose founder Yun Buyng-In studied Shudokan, although was also said to have trained a lot with Sang Sup Chun (who founded the Yun Moo Kwan/Jidokwan), who studied shotokan, so there must have at least been some influence. I personally have little idea how similar or different shotokan and shudokan are. Wikipedia tells me that Kanken Toyama pretty much trained alongside Funakoshi, though.

    Hwang Kee claimed to have studied Okinawan karate from books, but there is no evidence. His claims of having studied kung fu are also considered pretty spurious. Generally, Hwang Kee is considered a bit of a BS artist. Regardless, he taught shotokan kata.

    I think it's accurate to say that tang soo do/taekwondo derived from shotokan karate..+
    Thanks for the information but i still doubt that all kwans have that strong of a base in shotokan and since i am in korea right now i will begin to ask some questions and get more sources. on one note its refreshing to see how training differs here and in the states.
  9. retrograde is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/18/2008 8:44am


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Or you could just read this (pdf), which outlines the Shotokan connection pretty clearly.

    Depending on who you ask in Korea, you may find many are unwilling to discuss any Japanese connection and many are simply unaware of it.
  10. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/18/2008 9:13am

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Quote Originally Posted by Errant108
    1point2, you are posting in the Korean Martial Arts forum. Please read the guidelines before further posting. They are stickied at the top of the forum & labelled "Sit Down & Listen".
    I stand corrected. Sorry and thanks.

    I read Sit Down & Listen. You guys really know your stuff. Love the high-level discussion.

    Back on topic: if you don't respect several of a place's black belts, maybe it's the wrong place to train? I'm assuming they're playing by the same sparring rules you know and love.
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