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  1. M.C. is offline
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    This is all I do: girls, photography and BJJ...

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2008 9:00am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't get it, I never used anything else than BWE and the best part, everything you need is your body (okay, maybe something for the chin ups and dips but thats it.). Why do people need all that crappy equipment? If you really need to add some weight get a weightlifting belt and some weights to hang them on but it will take some time to get there.
  2. Emevas is offline
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    Dysfunctionally Strong

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2008 12:17pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Squats become very limited when it comes to bodyweight work.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  3. M.C. is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/09/2008 12:25pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    Squats become very limited when it comes to bodyweight work.
    I would like to see the guy doing 50 pistols like nothing and if you manage to do that you can add weights but then you are definitely going for "body-building" or else.
    Functional fitness is what most people are into or me at least and for that BWE are great.
  4. Emevas is offline
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    Dysfunctionally Strong

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2008 12:29pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Functional fitness...as opposed to that other kind?

    I can't think of any time in my life I've had to do a pistol for any reason...how is a pistol functional? Hell, my function at this point is to sit at a desk.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  5. M.C. is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/09/2008 12:37pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    Functional fitness...as opposed to that other kind?

    I can't think of any time in my life I've had to do a pistol for any reason...how is a pistol functional? Hell, my function at this point is to sit at a desk.
    Are you arguing the fact that it is hard to do 50 pistols/they are a good squat equivalent or the term functional fitness?
  6. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/09/2008 1:32pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by f4n4n
    Are you arguing the fact that it is hard to do 50 pistols/they are a good squat equivalent or the term functional fitness?
    Both.

    First, what is functional fitness for example?

    Second, how often do you lift an object or yourself with one leg only as opposed to using both legs in a squat or lunge position?

    Seriously. Which is the most common occurrence in real life?

    Now, I've done both. As a matter of fact I do them once a week since I don't have a place to do heavy squats right now. My max # of pistols is 10 per leg, and it's a bitch. Mind you, I've done them on a tilted platform (about 20 degrees) since trying to do it on a completely horizontal surface is a major bitch. But even then it's a bitch. Interestingly enough, I can do almost the same # of reps when holding a 25lbs dumbbell, so my limit has to do more with propioception, lack of balance or some weird details on my core strenght, not on my posterior chain strenght. There is no point at this moment to use a heavier load, not until I break the 20-rep barrier with bodyweight only.

    From personal experience in pistols and back squats (from high reps to near-maximal), I can see the value of pistols for balance and for strengthening (quite suprisingly) the hip flexors - yep, not the posterior chain as one would assume, but the hip flexors on the eccentric.

    Now here is where you are completely wrong. Pistols and barbell back squats are not equivalents.


    In a back squat, the stress is passed to the posterior chain (glutes and hamstrings taking the brunt.) Yes, you use your hip flexors to... duh... flex, but they don't control the descend. Glutes and hamstrings do. And they are the one that pop you right back on the way up.

    On a pistol, the hip flexors are the one taking the brunt controlling the descend. You don't feel a bleep on the glutes or hamstrings. And as you go up, it's almost entirely a knee flexion, not a glute (hip) flexion.

    A closer analogy to pistols would be front squats, but even then, past parallel, it's pure glutes and hamstrings. Not so with pistols.

    Hell, not even bodyweight squats are mechanically equivalent to barbell squats. Unless you keep yourself bent and concentrate on a hamstring-powered action, bodyweight squats naturally become a quadricep movement, even if you visualize moving the hips.

    Don't believe me? Get yourself under an unloaded bar and do 2 minutes of tabata squats (full ass-to-the-ground). Then a week later try 2 minutes of tabata squats bodyweight. Compare where the soreness is and let me know.

    And this is why I try to mix pistols with lunges. No way in hell that I'm going to tax my hip flexors without doing **** on my glutes and hamstrings. I'm already in lordosis, don't want more of that ****, thank you very much.

    Pistols are a very cool ****, a feat of strenght. Don't for a second believe, however, that they are the equivalent or more functional to barbell back squats. A front squat is more quadricep-powered than a back squat, and yet, it's closer and more of an equivalent to it than to pistols.

    Completely.

    Different.

    Animals.

    I rather do heavy lunges, jumping lunges or high step ups, or one-leg squats from a very high platform (with the other leg hanging) over pistols as my preferred bodyweight alternative to squats.

    [EDIT]

    I forgot to mention I'm doing pistols less and less in favor of one-leg box squats (for reps, plyometrics or overhead with dumbbells) sitting just above parallel. This is far closer and equivalent to a back squat, and since it hits the posterior chain (as opposed to using the hip flexors to control the descend or the quadriceps as prime movers), this is more functional.


    [EDIT]

    Also, harder =/= better. I find it harder to squat at 12 reps to true failure than to do 5 reps leaving a bit in the gas tank (the later is almost always better.)
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 6/09/2008 1:41pm at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  7. M.C. is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/09/2008 1:54pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I give it to you pistols are not very common in "pure appliance" but again it is a "functional training" .
    I know I use this term very lously for me it is 'I train something that helps me with tasks in my training and normal life' It is not exclusive for BWE it is applied to all kinds of training that has the goal of helping you with what you "normally do" (work, training you name it). It excludes bodybuilding, show muscles, muscle mass that limits my ROM or slows me down or training that limits you to one single task. I try to find and optimum of mass/speed/power/(looks).

    Though I was mentioning this exercise since I used it last couple of days while I helped my brother to move. The truck was something similar to a Uhall and it had a high trunk/boot sill and I used it several times to get in and out while carrying stuff. I know there would have been other ways but it was just convenient.
  8. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/09/2008 2:31pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dude, read this carefully. I'm not going to explain anything further to be honest. I'll leave it up to you to come to do your own research and come to your own conclusions. Later today I will split this thread into two parts (one for addressing the OP's question, and another one for this debate.)

    This is one argument I've seen way too often and I'm no longer inclined to put further energy beyond what it is in this post. Any questions here are purely rhetorical.

    Do your research and get to your own conclusions. Most important of all, do what you enjoy and serves your needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by f4n4n
    I know I use this term very lously for me it is 'I train something that helps me with tasks in my training and normal life'
    And what would be more conductive for training and normal life? Squatting down and up from a squat or lunge position (understand what a lunge is) or completely on one leg without help for the other one for acceleration, deceleration or balance (as in a true pistol)?

    In today's world where people sit on their desk all day (which causes a shortening of the hamstrings and hip flexors), the last thing they need is yet another hip-flexor/quadricep powered exercise (a pistol). They need **** that stimulates the posterior chain (squats, deadlifts, sprints, lunges, jumps).

    They need **** that's functional, not novel feats of strengths without much direct application in the real world.

    Quote Originally Posted by f4n4n
    It is not exclusive for BWE it is applied to all kinds of training that has the goal of helping you with what you "normally do" (work, training you name it).
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by f4n4n
    It excludes bodybuilding, show muscles, muscle mass that limits my ROM or slows me down or training that limits you to one single task.
    For example? What is bodybuilding? What kind of training entails in bodybuilding? Are all the exercises used in bodybuilding mutually exclusive for the ones that 'helps you with tasks in training and normal life'? Are the exercises or the training methodologies that define bodybuilding?

    What exactly are we talking about here?


    Quote Originally Posted by f4n4n
    Though I was mentioning this exercise since I used it last couple of days while I helped my brother to move. The truck was something similar to a Uhall and it had a high trunk/boot sill and I used it several times to get in and out while carrying stuff. I know there would have been other ways but it was just convenient.
    Dude, do you know the difference between pistols and lunges, step ups, step downs and vertical drops? You didn't use a pistol, you use a lunge variant to get in and out. :eusa_doh

    You. Did. Not. Use. A. Pistol. You. Used. A. High. Lunge (aka. Step. Up). To. Get. Up. And. A. Vertical. Drop. To. Get. Down. The. Truck.

    Now, I'm taking you to task because:

    I don't get it, I never used anything else than BWE and the best part, everything you need is your body (okay, maybe something for the chin ups and dips but thats it.).
    ^^^ This is not true for all valid fitness goals, even those nebulously claimed to be "functional". People almost make it into a religion of sorts without ever verifying if what they believe is anatomically true.

    You need to have a really good understanding of physical training to strictly use bodyweight exercises to their benefits. You are confusing lunges with pistols, so that understanding is lacking at best.

    Don't fall into dogmas dude. Research and think.

    And also, I'm taking you to task because of this:

    Quote Originally Posted by f4n4n
    I would like to see the guy doing 50 pistols like nothing and if you manage to do that you can add weights but then you are definitely going for "body-building" or else.
    First, this is not an answer to Emeva's point that without weight, you are limited to bodyweight squats (not to mention your body will switch to a predominant quadriceps movement rather than posterior chain one (which is what you always want if you want to play the functional card.)

    Seriously man, you can do 500 push ups, but that won't translate much into a press (not that a push up is a useless exercise, quite the contrary.)

    Physical training is not fucking mathematics where one exercise done a zillion reps will translate into a completely different exercise for a completely different purpose. It doesn't work that way.

    Second, unless you understand the differences between bodybuilding, strongman, powerlifting, strength training and olympic training, I suggest you stop using 'bodybuilding' as a general catch term. This is already explained, DEMANDED, on the sticky thread.

    Third, understand what bodybuilding entails before using that term. Pistols are not conductive of sarcoplasmic (size) hyperthrophy, nor have a carry-over to exercises used for that modality of training.

    Quote Originally Posted by f4n4n
    Functional fitness is what most people are
    Most people are into stuffing their mouths with cheetos and run desperatedly on the treadmill for a few weeks at the beginning of every year (or in the case of women, whenever they need to fit in a dress for a special ocassion, like a wedding... yes, I went there.)

    The few who try to commit to working out, they do so with inadecuate bodybuilding methods. They go for the looks, even if they don't know what the **** they are doing.

    VERY FEW, VERY, VERY FEW have the inclination to do it for sports-specific (competitive bodybuilding, oly lifting, powerlifting, strong man, track and field, climbing, parkour, crossfit), strength, health or 'functional' goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by f4n4n
    into or me at least and for that BWE are great.
    More power to you. Don't use that, however, as a platform for dogmatic generalizations. Know what you are doing and why, and also know what other people are doing and why.

    Don't stick to one modality for dogmatic reasons.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 6/09/2008 2:38pm at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  9. M.C. is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/09/2008 3:06pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I get it, you don't like my general terms and you have a point since this might get people confused. But stop throwing walls of text against people, wrap it up :icon_mrgr
    And I am pretty sure I used a pistol move not a lunge since I stood sideways to the truck, got my foot up/in the truck (still under my "center" not in front!) and then pressed up with the same foot, therefore it would be a pistol move, not a lunge, just that I started from a level 0 position going up to normal.

    On the bodybuilding:
    I use this term for people going for looks, competitions or just to "have" a biceps size of X. Training just to bulk up and have no "use" for their mass.
    I don't use it for people doing power lifting, strongmen or other "sports". I know this way of looking at it might get people confused since both train with weights and build muscle mass but one go for looks the other make use of their muscles and that is the difference.

    And I don't claim BWE to be the "one and only" but I would take a leap to say that it is more then sufficient for 98% of the general population. If you are a professional in any kind of sport there is almost no way around weight training, period.
    The advantage of BWE is that i can tailor my exercise around the "task/move" I would like to improve and still have almost or the same motion which adds to my training of that move on a different level then maybe an isolated exercise. And I can train with a minimum of equipment, where ever I want, when ever I want.

    The reason why I got into BWE in the first place is that I have several issues with my bones (my complete right side is shorter then my left side by almost an inch, and the last 2 doctors I consulted told me I wouldn't be able to walk at the age of 18 after looking at my x-rays, they said I should stop all sport and stuff, I did and I got worse, so I thought I would try and do the opposite and it worked)
    I tried working in a gym but it did not go well because I could not "shift" my body during exercises like I would do when using BWE, the only thing that I can do are free weights and I use them every now and then. This is what got me into BWE and trust me I know the stuff in order to train with my condition and I would say I am more then successfull over the last 5/6 years.
    Last edited by M.C.; 6/09/2008 3:09pm at .
  10. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/09/2008 3:52pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by f4n4n
    I get it, you don't like my general terms and you have a point since this might get people confused. But stop throwing walls of text against people, wrap it up :icon_mrgr
    That wall of text has a reason. Read it or ignore it.


    Quote Originally Posted by f4n4n
    And I am pretty sure I used a pistol move not a lunge since I stood sideways to the truck, got my foot up/in the truck (still under my "center" not in front!) and then pressed up with the same foot, therefore it would be a pistol move, not a lunge, just that I started from a level 0 position going up to normal.
    Nope. That's not a pistol. Sorry. Call it a pistol if you will, what you did was a posterior-chained powered side lunge without the eccentric. A pistol is almost completely controlled by the hip flexors on the way down, and the quadriceps on the way up, specially when the unused leg is kept straight forward (forcing the body to use the hip flexors and quadriceps rather than the posterior chain the the leg is dangling.)

    [at this point I'm very inclined to make a video demonstrating this]

    Call this a wall of text if you wish. That's how the body works. It wasn't a pistol, period. And it is not an equivalent to a back squat which is the original assertion you made.

    Carry on.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 6/09/2008 4:00pm at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
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