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  1. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    W. Yorks, UK
    Posts
    5,018

    Posted On:
    6/11/2008 7:26am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PorTScaN
    Ok, yeah my style sucks, and I am a total loser.
    We only said your style sucks, the second part of that statement is all yours baby.

    You shouldn't hate yourself so much, it's not healthy.
  2. Skillful is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Jersey
    Posts
    718

    Posted On:
    6/11/2008 7:36am


     Style: Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's nothing wrong with wing chun, some of us just prefer martial arts where a "challenge match" doesn't mean you're going to play dungeons and dragons with each other.
  3. Kung-Fu Joe is offline
    Kung-Fu Joe's Avatar

    Registered Member

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    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    929

    Posted On:
    6/11/2008 7:52am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PorTScaN
    If we take an average joe and put him up against a martail artist, I think you would find that no matter what style the martail artist trained in, it would be very effective. I am unsure what concrete evidence you require, but to me, that is straight common sense.
    Your "common sense" is actually "common misperception." Before I ever started training in any Martial Art, I used to rough-house with buddies of mine that had trained. I had gotten the better of TKD black-belts and MCMAP trained leathernecks before I ever started taking Karate, BJJ, or Boxing.

    And serioulsy, I do not need to put in any (new, old) arguments (claptrap) forward. I am enjoying my wing chun journey and will continue to train in it regardless of the opinions in this forum.
    Lovely. Then you have absolutely no reason to post here. You see, this is a discussion forum-- a place where things are discussed. If you feel no need to present argument-- a principle component of any discussion-- you have no need to respond to anything we write.

    Of course, your initial post-- wherein you wrote, "I'm surrounded by idiots," quite succinctly-- would suggest that you wanted to offer some contrary opinion to the presiding discussion; in which case, argument and evidence is necessary.

    --Joe
  4. datdamnmachine is offline
    datdamnmachine's Avatar

    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Nov 2005
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    Washington State
    Posts
    1,721

    Posted On:
    6/11/2008 4:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kung-Fu Joe
    Your "common sense" is actually "common misperception." Before I ever started training in any Martial Art, I used to rough-house with buddies of mine that had trained. I had gotten the better of TKD black-belts and MCMAP trained leathernecks before I ever started taking Karate, BJJ, or Boxing.

    Lovely. Then you have absolutely no reason to post here. You see, this is a discussion forum-- a place where things are discussed. If you feel no need to present argument-- a principle component of any discussion-- you have no need to respond to anything we write.

    Of course, your initial post-- wherein you wrote, "I'm surrounded by idiots," quite succinctly-- would suggest that you wanted to offer some contrary opinion to the presiding discussion; in which case, argument and evidence is necessary.

    --Joe
    As such, I believe PortScan has been owned. Had he read Joe's avatar, all of this could have been avoided. The man is, after all, dedicated to overthrowing stupidity on the interwebz.
  5. mrgoshthereturn is offline

    Registered Member

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    May 2008
    Location
    Midlands, England
    Posts
    208

    Posted On:
    6/12/2008 5:40am


     Style: shotokai/bjj/MT/ex-BBT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!


    thats an average joe
  6. mad_dog_mac is offline

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    3

    Posted On:
    6/28/2008 6:17pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Wing Chun, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I never thought a post I wrote back last September would end up being used as evidence in almost a recap of the wing chun wars.

    Derek Jones's martial art was called Body Mind and Spirit. I started training in it in 1989. I never trained under Derek but under his only certified pupil who had set up a school in Ealing in Dereks name. Dereks school was based in Sheperds Bush. Tragically he died in a motorcycle accident in 1990 and for several years numerous arguements over who was his top pupil and worthy of carrying on his name went on. My teacher stayed out of all of it.

    Derek did not just train in wing chun and he didnt just 'street fight' he trained with as many different martial artists and styles as he could. when he felt he had learned what he wanted he moved on.

    He was born in Wales and was constantley fighting from a young age. He got hooked on martial arts in the 70's and personally because of his physical makeup, aggression and the attitude that he would never lose. I do not think it matters which martial art he chose he would have excelled in any of them.

    Derek was one of the first teachers to use pressure testing with his students. He would have one on one sessions where he would scare the **** out of them and put them under physical and mental duress in sparring. He believed that by induscing fear and adrenaline into a near live situation the student eventially would learn to accept as it a natural body reaction. He stated that "if you sneeze you dont have a fit" because it is natural.

    Back in the 80's cross training did not really exist, either your style had all of the componants of a fighting system or it did not. Body Mind and Spirit did not and does not.

    There is absolutley no ground fighting in Body Mind and Spirit. Derek had devised moves to get people off you when you are in the clinch stage he said that "you hit people a couple of times and then they grab onto your jacket". There are quite a few take downs and finishes in the system but they are from a standing position with your opponent on the floor.

    The system was never designed to go to the floor. The idea being that for self defense you use awareness to avoid confrontation and if that fails hit first and hard, Derek was an athlete he not only could outsprint his opponents he could knock people out. It is not the same as fighting a trained person, if you are having an argument with someone and they say "I dont want any trouble" but the next thing you know your waking up on the floor with no teeth you have just been suckered. And that is part of the self defense game, no facing off just someone hitting someone using disengaging language to line them up. Its not pretty but that is how the system was trained. Derek favoured a rear hand cross using the lead hand to either show compliance or to point to hide the real punch. If Derek did ever go to the floor he was an extrmeley strong individual and I doubt that any of his opponents had BJJ, Judo or any other wrestling or grappling experience. plus he wasnt averse to sticking his fingers into peoples eyes or biting them.

    I have heard hundreds of stories from first hand sources about Dereks legendary fight record but none of it can be proven. He was a one off in the respect that his martial art worked for him. Some of those he taught could fight but ultimatley his art died with him.

    I have limited Judo and over the years have mixed it up with BJJ and other grapplers. The wing chun system I was taught although incomplete does work because when you cannot see what is going on all you have is touch. If you know what someone is going to do through touch you can manipulate and counter. If Derek had survived into the 90's when the UFC and MMA were just growing I imagine he would have added some form of ground work to his system. I do understand that you need to learn how to take people to the floor before you can learn how to avoid it and how to reverse a situation once you are already there. The main complaints about wing chun are pretty accurate. Chain punching does not work slapping people does not work unless you are Tank Abbot. However all martial arts have softners and strong powerful moves that if you have position and experience do work for you.

    Wing Chun does not have ground fighting but it does have contact reflex training and it works both standing up and on the floor. It will not win you the fight but might give you a split second chance to manipulate the situation.

    There now I dont have to say anything for another 6 months! woo hoo
  7. Flee is offline

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    3

    Posted On:
    4/23/2010 11:25am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi Mad Dog,

    Good post. I agree with most of what you say. However, I do not think it is correct to say the art died with him. I train under Simon James and he continues to teach BMS as he himself was taught by Derek. Cheers.
  8. Omega Supreme is offline

    Administrator

    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    West Coast
    Posts
    22,963

    Posted On:
    4/23/2010 11:39am

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mad_dog_mac View Post
    I never thought a post I wrote back last September would end up being used as evidence in almost a recap of the wing chun wars.

    Derek Jones's martial art was called Body Mind and Spirit. I started training in it in 1989. I never trained under Derek but under his only certified pupil who had set up a school in Ealing in Dereks name. Dereks school was based in Sheperds Bush. Tragically he died in a motorcycle accident in 1990 and for several years numerous arguements over who was his top pupil and worthy of carrying on his name went on. My teacher stayed out of all of it.

    Derek did not just train in wing chun and he didnt just 'street fight' he trained with as many different martial artists and styles as he could. when he felt he had learned what he wanted he moved on.

    He was born in Wales and was constantley fighting from a young age. He got hooked on martial arts in the 70's and personally because of his physical makeup, aggression and the attitude that he would never lose. I do not think it matters which martial art he chose he would have excelled in any of them.

    Derek was one of the first teachers to use pressure testing with his students. He would have one on one sessions where he would scare the **** out of them and put them under physical and mental duress in sparring. He believed that by induscing fear and adrenaline into a near live situation the student eventially would learn to accept as it a natural body reaction. He stated that "if you sneeze you dont have a fit" because it is natural.

    Back in the 80's cross training did not really exist, either your style had all of the componants of a fighting system or it did not. Body Mind and Spirit did not and does not.

    There is absolutley no ground fighting in Body Mind and Spirit. Derek had devised moves to get people off you when you are in the clinch stage he said that "you hit people a couple of times and then they grab onto your jacket". There are quite a few take downs and finishes in the system but they are from a standing position with your opponent on the floor.

    The system was never designed to go to the floor. The idea being that for self defense you use awareness to avoid confrontation and if that fails hit first and hard, Derek was an athlete he not only could outsprint his opponents he could knock people out. It is not the same as fighting a trained person, if you are having an argument with someone and they say "I dont want any trouble" but the next thing you know your waking up on the floor with no teeth you have just been suckered. And that is part of the self defense game, no facing off just someone hitting someone using disengaging language to line them up. Its not pretty but that is how the system was trained. Derek favoured a rear hand cross using the lead hand to either show compliance or to point to hide the real punch. If Derek did ever go to the floor he was an extrmeley strong individual and I doubt that any of his opponents had BJJ, Judo or any other wrestling or grappling experience. plus he wasnt averse to sticking his fingers into peoples eyes or biting them.

    I have heard hundreds of stories from first hand sources about Dereks legendary fight record but none of it can be proven. He was a one off in the respect that his martial art worked for him. Some of those he taught could fight but ultimatley his art died with him.

    I have limited Judo and over the years have mixed it up with BJJ and other grapplers. The wing chun system I was taught although incomplete does work because when you cannot see what is going on all you have is touch. If you know what someone is going to do through touch you can manipulate and counter. If Derek had survived into the 90's when the UFC and MMA were just growing I imagine he would have added some form of ground work to his system. I do understand that you need to learn how to take people to the floor before you can learn how to avoid it and how to reverse a situation once you are already there. The main complaints about wing chun are pretty accurate. Chain punching does not work slapping people does not work unless you are Tank Abbot. However all martial arts have softners and strong powerful moves that if you have position and experience do work for you.

    Wing Chun does not have ground fighting but it does have contact reflex training and it works both standing up and on the floor. It will not win you the fight but might give you a split second chance to manipulate the situation.

    There now I dont have to say anything for another 6 months! woo hoo
    Wow, good post.
  9. Kung-Fu Joe is offline
    Kung-Fu Joe's Avatar

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    929

    Posted On:
    4/23/2010 12:42pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Holy thread necro, Batman!

    ...though it did give me a chance to read mad_dog_mac's post, which I had not seen before.
  10. hitandrun is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    493

    Posted On:
    4/24/2010 1:26am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mad_dog_mac View Post
    It is not the same as fighting a trained person, if you are having an argument with someone and they say "I dont want any trouble" but the next thing you know your waking up on the floor with no teeth you have just been suckered. And that is part of the self defense game, no facing off just someone hitting someone using disengaging language to line them up.
    SOoo.. That's why some people use disengaging language/lines like "Excuse me sir, could you please back up".
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