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  1. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2008 6:29pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Sparring with power

    I've been too lazy to video tape anything recently with our group, but one of the senior guys from a Lightning Scientific Arnis/LESKAS sister club of ours (Mandirigmang Kaliradman, located in Davao, PI) just uploaded some sparring videos. I just thought I'd pass the links along, if anyone is interested. Be sure to take a look at the end of the second video.

    YouTube - MK - Sparing Practice Round 1
    YouTube - MK - Sparing Practice Round 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc_Y_...eature=related
  2. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2008 7:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pretty cool. The first one looks just slightly speed up, maybe his video converting wasn't set right.

    I think its awesome, but I have a few concerns.

    First a question, are there no stabs allowed in this type of drill? what are the rules of this? What are they working on(as in why is it only #1 into roof most all of the time)?

    and second, the static overhead roof position doesn't seem to do much to protect the hand or head even. Its completely wrong to what I am taught. What I mean is in alot of sections one guy is just putting up a roof block as a guard and the other guy hits into it. Mostly the guy in red. also when he is bringing up the roof in cycles, the stick is behind his hand, so again, the hand is exposed. Fine in Armor, not fine without armor. and its in a bunk angle which doesn't actual do much at all to protect him, as is demonstrated in the second photo below.

    here is what I am referring too:



    and in the third sparring session, at about :22 grey jersey hits that position completely out of his why with a neck shot. I drew in the sticks because they don't show in the screen capture. I encourage everyone to watch it live though, this is just for reference.



    It just seems to be a weak way to hold the weapon as a block on so many levels.

    Pretty cool training though.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  3. Red Elvis is offline
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    Da Komrads... Again you are MadPelvisOwn3d!

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2008 7:49pm

    supporting member
     Style: Spetsnaz Shovel-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My comments on the videos:

    Video 1:
    "We're sorry, this video is no longer available."

    Video 2:
    "We're sorry, this video is no longer available."

    Video 3:
    "We're sorry, this video is no longer available."

    OK, that about sums up my thoughts.

    EDIT:
    Well, after giving up on watching the videos here I went back and clicked the link and was able to watch them on the actual Youtube site. Sooo...

    Comments:

    First off, kudos to all people who spar. I don't give a **** if they got gloves and WEKAF or not. At least they put their **** to use.

    Secondly, yeah, the static hand positions are a bit interesting. Interestingly they don't seem to be going for the hand though. I bet they'd move that hand better if they didn't have those heavy gloves on. Although, many would say the Salty Chamber is wide open to attack and I work that **** like crazy.


    Third, do they have more than just roof blocks and #1's? Maybe this was a drill of sorts with those techniques specifically in mind? Hard to tell but they both were working the same thing. Not much strategy and movement. Ryno, do you have more info?
    Last edited by Red Elvis; 5/30/2008 8:01pm at .
    .
    :icon_twis
    .

    To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
    Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without spilling your Guinness.
    Sun "Fu Man JhooJits" Tzu, the Art of War & Guinness
  4. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2008 12:46am


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, I found the roof block pose kind of odd, and it's not exactly standard practice in Lightning Scientific, and is more likely personal preference by that fighter. As DTT pointed out, I don't find it a strong position defensively. But what it does do is gets your elbow up high in an aggressive chambered position. When you drop it, you get lots of power. Power is a big focus in the system, and this pose definitely helps you out in this regard.

    It does seem like that hand would be a pretty sweet target in that position. I'm guessing that the fighter does that solely to maximize his power, and is reliant on his hand speed and aggressive counter attacks to avoid it being a target. The gloves help pretty drastically as well. I know that this crew competes in WEKAF style competition a fair amount, and often times in this setting if two fighters throw, with one landing a thump and the other landing a decisive crack on a mask, the head shot gets the score. Maybe this is why?

    I personally don't use that roof around to strike one motion much at all. I'll go roof to vertical drop or roof to same side pull/backhand most of the time. Our roof blocks are more of an aggressive jam/redirection than a passive rolling motion generally. It is possible that the fighters were working the roof-to-one specifically, but I'm really not sure. There is enough occasional variation in their swings to make me think not.

    If I were them, I'd try to vary things a little more, and to avoid rhythm fighting. There are a couple of exchanges where they are both whirling around going roof-1-roof-1, just trading. Just angling out with footwork, then coming in with a different strike angle could be pretty advantageous. Strikes, upward diagonals, verticals, or doblada faints to strikes could really be an edge.

    What I did like was the commitment with power. This is definitely a hallmark of the system, and these guys showed it well.
  5. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2008 2:10am

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno
    When you drop it, you get lots of power. Power is a big focus in the system, and this pose definitely helps you out in this regard.
    I can see that and I have felt it myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno
    It does seem like that hand would be a pretty sweet target in that position. I'm guessing that the fighter does that solely to maximize his power, and is reliant on his hand speed and aggressive counter attacks to avoid it being a target. The gloves help pretty drastically as well.
    If you are wearing a glove it is awsome!! It is even possible to consider that if you have a weapon you should have at least a glove or some kind of guard on the handle so considering the hand protected in combat can be fine. The fear I have is that normal day to day applications are going to be with table leg or bat, or rolled up magazine, or maybe a stick, so even with all that arm dropping power it counts on getting 1/3 of the way though a full revolution before the weapon comes into play to protect the hand. If the other guy hits your hand as you come down guess where all that power goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno
    I know that this crew competes in WEKAF style competition a fair amount, and often times in this setting if two fighters throw, with one landing a thump and the other landing a decisive crack on a mask, the head shot gets the score. Maybe this is why?
    yes, crack vs thump in sports, Nothing wrong with that or with sparring hard in armor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno
    I personally don't use that roof around to strike one motion much at all. I'll go roof to vertical drop or roof to same side pull/backhand most of the time. Our roof blocks are more of an aggressive jam/redirection than a passive rolling motion generally. It is possible that the fighters were working the roof-to-one specifically, but I'm really not sure. There is enough occasional variation in their swings to make me think not.
    I boldd that part because this is the big difference I was mentioning, well if by "jam" you mean a forward and upward angle of a #2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno
    If I were them, I'd try to vary things a little more, and to avoid rhythm fighting. There are a couple of exchanges where they are both whirling around going roof-1-roof-1, just trading. Just angling out with footwork, then coming in with a different strike angle could be pretty advantageous. Strikes, upward diagonals, verticals, or doblada faints to strikes could really be an edge.
    well, I did like the moving and footwork, being alive and freestyle. The grey jersey really did some cool stuff, and with power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno
    What I did like was the commitment with power. This is definitely a hallmark of the system, and these guys showed it well.
    Yes, and I think it was obvious that was the point of you posting the videos. and with the dented face cage and all!

    I threw this together just now for this thread. At the last TD I did some armor hitting. I haven't got the power to show off but I did hit his hand a bit due to the positioning of the collisions (geometry).

    YouTube - Some hand hits in escrima

    The second guy is not me, but he is a Latosa guy and he is wearing my knee pads.
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 5/31/2008 5:00am at .

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  6. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2008 9:24am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Neat.

    Like many I had a problem with a) the static hand positions and b) the lack of variety in targets. I enjoyed the power generation though. I'm simply not used to seeing the roof umbrella done as a static cover instead of an active crash. It felt like it should be a rising motion with the combatants either closing or fading on that motion.

    Also(shameless plug), you'll notice they violated Silver's maxims- They would preface their motion with the feet and begin the swing in mid-step, and it seemed to result in both of them knowing that the other would do(well, that and the fact that they only did one thing).

    Particularly when you know your opponent is guarding one side, you'd think there'd be some notion of making a prepatory motion toward that side, and then attacking the other.
  7. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2008 11:44am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is there much material for how to attack by draw, or drills for adapting once you've got their responses?

    Addressing ryno of course
  8. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2008 1:47pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We've actually been covering this extensively recently. There are obviously a lot of factors involved, but the general goal is to hit accessible targets from largo (hands, whatnot) and bait a response. We've really been playing around with misdirection in footwork, and it really does wonders for opening things up.

    Too many times fighters will close the gap too linearly and end up head-on with one another, right in each other's gunsights. Then it is either the fastest hands win, a trade, or entanglement. This just ends up messy in almost any of these cases. The fighters are facing one another, both can engage with their sticks, and if it's close enough, secondary weapons (kicks, punched, daggers) can also come into play from both parties. Messy messy, messy.

    So, one method for setup that we've been using is as follows: At largo, if you opponent is a righthander, and is in a right lead, I will attack his lead hand, or hit his stick to force a guard recovery. (Assuming his in a neutral stick forward type of position). I make sure to step wide to the right as I throw my initial baiting hit, forcing him to turn a bit that way. I'm trying to get my initial hit to wrap around his front side. With an aggressively angled step, I may even be able to bypass his guard and connect to his head. He is forced to turn to keep me square.

    At this point, I need to really watch my range as I am putting myself right in his gunsights. If I angle myself to the right too steeply, he could bring his rear-side weapons/kicks/punches into play. So when I step to the right, I need to keep the angle rather wide, always being wary of the secondary weapons. He should have to turn to his left to square up and absorb the power, and keep me from wrapping around and dinging him with a slapping #1 or forehand horizontal.

    Now, this takes a lot of good timing and footwork, but the goal here is to get him to turn to his left, at which point I immediately make a footwork cut back to my left, and in at a steeper angle. This isn't terribly hard to do because he is still in an aggressive right lead, and his back is exposed from commiting to the initial defense. So I basically make something like a football cut, and step in. I'll switch from a right stick lead which was used during my initial attack/feint, load up on that leg, then cut to the left stepping in and forward, switching to a left lead and coming in behind his elbow.

    I'll also retract my weapon to a closed/backhand position immediately after I make my initial attack. As I step in to the left, I'll check the hell out of his elbow to keep him from squaring up and/or throwing anything. From there, he's looking over his shoulder at me. My stick is somewhat obscured by his shoulder and my checking arm. I'll immediately launch a horizontal or slight upward angled strike, targeting right behind his ear.

    He's in a very bad spot at this point. His only real defense is to bail out, at which point I will aggressively pursue and flurry.

    By misdirecting with footwork, it opens up attacks from the backside, which is a hell of a lot safer to do. The targets are also a lot more difficult to defend.

    We've been playing around with a bunch of variations on this bait hit/redirected footwork and have been having very good success with it. One of the other instructors for our club, Bob Park, really started pushing for us to start using our feet more, and the results are really paying off. If your footwork is good, it really makes everything else a hell of a lot easier. There's less sloppy trading, there's less of the fastest-hands-game, and you end up getting beautifully clean shots on your opponent rather than just hacking your way through their defense.

    I've been meaning to do a video sometime soon. Perhaps we'll film the sequence that I was just trying to describe.
    Last edited by Ryno; 6/05/2008 1:50pm at .
  9. Meex is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2008 6:20pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tao Ga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When I was learning escrima, I had a very small group of
    friends that I used to spar with, outside of that training.
    Each was versed in at least one TMA, a few were boxers,
    wrestlers, two kickboxers, and the rest varied in JMA/CMA.

    We sparred weapon v weapon, weapon v empty hand, and
    empty hand v empty hand.

    What actually helped keep both my form and technique as
    accurate as possible, was the fact that I didn't know what
    my opponents were going to do. Sparring against other
    weapons and other arts allowed the training to take over,
    and keep a lot of the thought process out.

    We always made it a point to act, and not react. In fact, if
    you reacted, you were too late.

    When I would go back to 'class' I always found I did better
    than others I sparred, because I did not guess, or, wait for
    them to move. And, I had no preconceived notions of what
    was going to happen.

    Like cross-training, it broadened my skills, as well as my mind.

    `~/


    .
    Last edited by Meex; 6/05/2008 6:23pm at .

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