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  1. Kung-Fu Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2008 11:26am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Confusing terminology in a Judo handbook...

    My fiancee has started taking Judo, and she's asked me to help her study and practice the things she'll need for her Yellow Belt test. I've been training BJJ, with some Judo and Wrestling for standup, so some of the terminology used in her handbook confuses me.

    Oddly enough, nothing in the Tachi-waza, Ukemi, or Etiquette sections is confusing to me-- I'm having trouble with the descriptions for certain ne-waza techniques.

    • kesa gatame - No confusion on this one. Obviously, I know how to apply a scarf-hold.
    • Uphill turn escape from kesa gatame - This one, I'm unsure about. I'm assuming it's a basic scarf-hold escape, wherein you bridge over your shoulder and try to break the top-player's balance in order to create space. You can then turn to your knees, or attempt to re-Guard. Am I right?
    • yoko shiho gatame - No worries. Standard cross-side position. Easy enough.
    • leg entanglement escape from yoko shiho gatame - I'm assuming this is a re-Guard or an escape to half-Guard, but I wasn't sure.
    • hadaka jime - RNC. Simple enough.
    • cross face turn over (from hand and knees top) - I'm not sure about this one. I'm assuming that it's a Crossface from Side-Control, but I'm unsure about the "turn over" part. Is this an attempt to expose the back by crossface?
    • elbow and knee turn over from kesa gatame - Completely lost, here. I have no idea whose elbow and whose knee is supposed to do the turn over. Again, is this an attempt to expose the bottom-player's back?
    • swinging knee entry (from legs around top) - I'm assuming that "legs around top" means "being in the Guard." I figure that the "entry" part is referring to passing the Guard. Now it's just the "swinging knee" part that confuses me (if my other assumptions are correct). Perhaps just throwing the legs aside for the pass?
    • Ryan's leg hug entry (from legs around top) - I'm guessing this is a single- or double-under stack pass. Obviously, this one might be a tad more specific to the school, given that it's credited to a specific person...



    If anyone's familiar with this terminology, I'd be much appreciative for your input. It all looked kinda non-standard, so I figure other people-- even Judoka-- might be just as confused by the non-descriptive titles as I am, but it's worth asking, just in case.

    --Joe
  2. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2008 11:41am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

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    This looks like its from jeff miller at Acadian judo in Lafayette. Most are attacks to the turtle. A lot of the stuff is just club specific and hard to describe.
  3. Ungjaevel is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2008 11:46am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ & Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    elbow and knee turn over from kesa gatame - Completely lost, here. I have no idea whose elbow and whose knee is supposed to do the turn over. Again, is this an attempt to expose the bottom-player's back?
    If I know judokas at all, most of them would prefer to stay in kesa gatame and get the pin rather than trying to expose the back. If I had to guess, I would say it sounds like an escape by the person on bottom.
  4. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2008 12:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kung-Fu Joe
    [*]leg entanglement escape from yoko shiho gatame - I'm assuming this is a re-Guard or an escape to half-Guard, but I wasn't sure.
    Any time you grapevine the guy's leg from the bottom position the time for the pin is stopped. In Judo rules if you pin a guy long enough you get points and can win the match. When the bottom guy entangles he "escapes" the pin in Judo rules.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kung-Fu Joe
    [*]cross face turn over (from hand and knees top) - I'm not sure about this one. I'm assuming that it's a Crossface from Side-Control, but I'm unsure about the "turn over" part. Is this an attempt to expose the back by crossface?
    No this is an attempt to pin your opponent when he is on all fours.

    You are also on all fours beside him but perpendicular. You reach under his chest and grab his far arm. You reach under his head/face with your other arm and grab his far arm. Pull in to you and drive forward. You will knock his base out and force him to his back. Now you can pin.

    *OR*

    Exact same thing as above, but you go for his far elbow and far knee by reaching underneath and pulling as you drive forward. This is ALSO done by "flipping" the opponent in the exact opposite way. You are just standing over them reach OVER them, grab thier knee and elbow and pull back.

    The other ****, as you said, looks school specific.

    The last 2 I described are completely foreign to the strategies and concepts of BJJ. This is because BJJ assumes taking the back as the ultimate position. Not so in Judo. Or even old school JJ. In my opinion, this comes from pre-Gracie days of JJ where people understood that taking the back may mean them escaping and you now having to use the guard - where we are seeing the resurgence of how effective a ground and pound can really be.
  5. Kung-Fu Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2008 12:43pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks, guys! That's extremely helpful. Makes a lot more sense to me, now.

    --Joe
  6. Das Moose is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2008 1:42pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    The last 2 I described are completely foreign to the strategies and concepts of BJJ. This is because BJJ assumes taking the back as the ultimate position. Not so in Judo. Or even old school JJ. In my opinion, this comes from pre-Gracie days of JJ where people understood that taking the back may mean them escaping and you now having to use the guard - where we are seeing the resurgence of how effective a ground and pound can really be.
    Its interesting that you say that yrkoon, reminds me of a Matt Thornton seminar I was at where he mentioned that he specifically tells his mma fighters not to attempt to put hooks in from attacking the turtle but rather to just keep weight on and keep striking. I also remember Forrest Griffin telling his students not to give up position in tuf... seems like these strategies are becoming more and more part of mma.
  7. T3hJudoChop is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2008 8:38am


     Style: Judo/Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kung-Fu Joe
    [*]elbow and knee turn over from kesa gatame - Completely lost, here. I have no idea whose elbow and whose knee is supposed to do the turn over. Again, is this an attempt to expose the bottom-player's back?
    If it is the same as my club, this is basically used against the player who is in the prone position. That is, flat on his/her stomach, stalling for a standup. The turnover requires you to step the leg closest to the knees over the body, have one hand grab the elbow, and the other grab the pants around the knee. Use your legs to lift and flip the person on to their back. I think it works better for full mount, but I guess kesa could work there too. It's definitely not something you would see in a BJJ or sub grappling tournament, but since a pin requires the person to be on their back, it is what it is.

    [*]swinging knee entry (from legs around top) - I'm assuming that "legs around top" means "being in the Guard." I figure that the "entry" part is referring to passing the Guard. Now it's just the "swinging knee" part that confuses me (if my other assumptions are correct). Perhaps just throwing the legs aside for the pass?
    If it's like my club, pretty much. Done before they have a chance to pull you into guard. Grab the pants around knees, push one way, and when the person resists, push the legs back the other way. when you are pushing the legs back, use the arm on the far knee to pin both legs down to prevent them from recovering guard, then pass and pin. Not really a fan of this one.
  8. FightingLegacy is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2008 8:41pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA & Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "elbow and knee turn over from kesa gatame - Completely lost, here. I have no idea whose elbow and whose knee is supposed to do the turn over. Again, is this an attempt to expose the bottom-player's back?"

    I think this would be the reversal for the bottom grappler. Elbow down on the mat, knee under the top grapplers hips. Get a body lock around the top man's torso, bridge & roll them over you to the opposite side. So if they have Kesa on you from your right side, you'd roll them to your right.

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