Hardcore Taekwondo

[DerAuslander]

Also, just so I am clear on your request, are you of the opinion that "hardcore TKD" does, or does not exist?

I am of the opinion that what your hardcore TKD is probably not, until proven otherwise, since your diatribe is typical of those who come here deriding "Sport" TKD, only to show us that their so-called "Hardcore TKD" is dead patterns, one-steps, horrible hosinsul, and flailing leg sparring, and is overall an incoherent curriculum of karate-based lack of aliveness.

This isn't my critique on TKD.

It's my critique of you based on what you've posted so far.

Until convinced otherwise, I will sit here & drink my Korean Kola.:qpepsi:

See, it's got a Taegeuk on it.

Do you also hold that all TKD is the same, or do you believe there are some instructors that are not actually trained in TKD, nor qualified to teach, yet claim to be teaching TKD?

What the hell are you talking about?

Do you see a difference between fake credentials, kiddy karate TKD, sport TKD schools, and "genuine" TKD that is designed for self defense and a well-balanced program of mind, body, and spirit training for the serious individual?

I think Olympic TKD is real TKD.

The rest....not so much.

[Blue_Knight]

I am of the opinion that what your hardcore TKD is probably not, until proven otherwise,

Well, DerAuslander, it's clear to me that you have formed an "opinion" about me and my training based on your previous interactions with other people on the internet who are not me, and without having seen me in person. If that's your rationality, then so be it.

I guess the first issue to resolve would be what do you define as "hardcore TKD?"

After you explain your definition, I will tell you what mine is, and then we can try and figure out a way to establish where my training fits. While we are at it, we can do the same for your training. Is yours hardcore?

Also, to clarify, I don't deride sport TKD. In fact, I am a big fan of sport Taekwondo, so long as it is not mistaken as all there is to Taekwondo, and is only a portion of a well-balanced TKD curriculum.

only to show us that their so-called "Hardcore TKD" is dead patterns, one-steps, horrible hosinsul, and flailing leg sparring, and is overall an incoherent curriculum of karate-based lack of aliveness.

This raises the question of whether you think all practice of patterns and one-steps are "dead." Do you think all hoshinsul is "horrible," or have you just mystically divined that opinion of me out of thin air.

This isn't my critique on TKD.

It's my critique of you based on what you've posted so far.

Until convinced otherwise....

I still find that amusing since there is nothing of any bearing here that would indicate one way or the other what my training is like currently, or what it was like over the past decade, or the past 30 plus years. You have no real clue, do you?

Ok, so what hoops do you want me to jump through to "convince you otherwise?" Are you willing to jump through the same hoops or are you admittedly not hardcore?

Do you also hold that all TKD is the same, or do you believe there are some instructors that are not actually trained in TKD, nor qualified to teach, yet claim to be teaching TKD?
.

What the hell are you talking about?

In response to this question, I was addressing Miguksaram's inquiry into my label of "genuine TKD." I am pointing out that there are people who are not trained instructors, or not even Black Belts, who open schools after reading a book, or taking a few classes at the YMCA, and call themselves instructors. There are those who became instructors in Karate, jujutsu, or some other system, and "converted" to Taekwondo by adding more kicks, calling it Taekwondo, and changing the sign on the front of their "Dojo." I differentiate between those, and what I do as legitimate, genuine TKD as taught in Korea, and certified by the Kukkiwon. It might not be considered by some as the only "genuine TKD" but what I do is genuine, and not a copy-cat McDojang.

I think Olympic TKD is real TKD.

The rest....not so much.

You aren't serious here.... are you??? lol

[It is Fake]

Welcome to bullshido and the KMA forum. As you will shortly discover, this is not how people work. You made an assertion about YOUR TKD, People here disagree and now it is up to you to define your brand. We have been here to long to give you examples so, you can build a counterpoint. In other words, you define your TKD then Der, Mav and others will possibly define their viewpoint.

[DerAuslander]

Well, DerAuslander, it's clear to me that you have formed an "opinion" about me and my training based on your previous interactions with other people on the internet who are not me, and without having seen me in person. If that's your rationality, then so be it.

After years of doing this, I've learned to recognize patterns.

Prove me wrong.

I guess the first issue to resolve would be what do you define as "hardcore TKD?"

Kicking & punching trained in an alive fashion. With kimchi.

While we are at it, we can do the same for your training. Is yours hardcore?

What I advocate for is fairly well-known.

This raises the question of whether you think all practice of patterns and one-steps are "dead."

Yes. By definition, they are dead training. This doesn't mean there isn't a place for them, just that they are not and should never be the focus of training. One-steps are completely useless and should be done away with. There are better ways, more effective ways.

Do you think all hoshinsul is "horrible," or have you just mystically divined that opinion of me out of thin air.

Show me. Prove your claims.

I still find that amusing since there is nothing of any bearing here that would indicate one way or the other what my training is like currently, or what it was like over the past decade, or the past 30 plus years. You have no real clue, do you?

Considering you sound exactly like the rest of the so-called "hardcore TKD" people who ended up sucking, why should I give you any credence?

Ok, so what hoops do you want me to jump through to "convince you otherwise?"

YouTube videos of your so-called hardcore training.

Are you willing to jump through the same hoops or are you admittedly not hardcore?

I already have.

You aren't serious here.... are you??? lol

I am absolutely serious. Olympic TKD is real TKD, and in many cases, more "hardcore" than most who claim their systems are "REAL TKD".

[It is Fake]

I am absolutely serious. Olympic TKD is real TKD, and in many cases, more "hardcore" than most who claim their systems are "REAL TKD".

Yes, he has a thread proving this so, don't go there please.

[Blue_Knight]

After years of doing this, I've learned to recognize patterns.

Prove me wrong.

Hmmmm. Sounds like a challenge. I wonder if I'm up for it. :thumbsup: Well, I guess I'll see what I can do to provide some level of proof, however we might disagree as to what hardcore training is.... :karated:

Kicking & punching trained in an alive fashion.

Is that all? And here I thought your standards would be higher than mine.

....With kimchi.

Oh, well.... that leaves me out. I hate kimchi! But then, I am a picky eater! :XXpuke:

What I advocate for is fairly well-known.

I'm sure it is - among the regulars here. Please excuse my ignorance, and limited time to search back posts. I thought it would be easier for you to just state if you believe your training falls into the category of hardcore or not.

Yes. By definition, they are dead training. This doesn't mean there isn't a place for them, just that they are not and should never be the focus of training. One-steps are completely useless and should be done away with. There are better ways, more effective ways.

Well, here is one area where you and I definitely disagree. I believe that when forms are taught properly, learned correctly, and practiced vigorously with intense mental and physical fusion, they become alive. I agree they are not the focus of training, but are a valuable tool for reaching maximum potential in skills. Some say they can reach it without forms, but I question if they really have reached their pinnacle of abilities, or just a plateau with a view.

I also disagree that one-steps are "completely useless" and should be done away with. You have formed your opinion from personal experience, or by what someone else said that you decided to agree with - for some reason. It is my experience that those who don't value one-steps, have never been properly taught the value of them. The human brain works in many intricate ways, and one-steps are a training tool that sharpens many aspects of the mind/body coordination for self defense.

It is like cutting down a tree with a chain saw, without starting the motor, and determining that the chain saw is an ineffective tool. Then proposing that there are better, more effective ways to cut down a tree, such as a hand saw or an ax. The chain saw is effective if you know how to use it (oh, yes. I'm sure you are confident that you know how they work well, but your comments tell me otherwise, and I after years of doing this, I've learned to recognize patterns....)

YouTube videos of your so-called hardcore training.

This is a fair request..... but it might take a while. I have never loaded a video up on the internet before, so I would have to compile a montage, and learn how to upload it.

I already have.

Yes, I'm sure you have. I thought, perhaps, you wouldn't mind providing me with a quick link to a page that tells me more about who you are (male/female) your age, rank, certification, time in training, how long teaching, etc. I really would like to get to know you better so I can understand where you are coming from, and find common ground for future discussions. As a moderator for this forum, I would imagine your personal information and credentials are well established, and made public, so I would be interested in a link where I can read about it so you don't have to repeat it here again and again.

Also, do you have any youtube videos of yourself that I can view. If so, could you guide me to a link, or a page that already has links to your online videos.

I am absolutely serious. Olympic TKD is real TKD, and in many cases, more "hardcore" than most who claim their systems are "REAL TKD".

Well, I would be interested in further discussions on this topic. Perhaps in another thread if it is too far off topic here. I became involved in Olympic TKD in 1992 as a coach, referee, and also a competitor. I participated regularly for about 8 years. I trained with and was certified directly by 9th Dan Grandmaster Kowang Woong Kim, who wrote the rule book for the WTF, and served as the chairman of the Referee and rules committee . I view Olympic TKD as a sport game with elements that are extracted from "REAL TKD," so I'm not saying it is fake, or crap. I just don't view it as what TKD entirely is since the Art is much more than what is contained on the competition floor, or in a set of rules for a sport.

Olympic TKD is real TKD sport, but it is a stretch to say it is "real TKD" because there are those who just train for the Olympic ring, and cut out a lot of what TKD is. In my opinion, these 'sport-only' athletes are not doing real TKD. If they are training in the full package, then great, but sport TKD is only a portion of the whole.

Blue Knight

[DerAuslander]

Hmmmm. Sounds like a challenge. I wonder if I'm up for it. :thumbsup: Well, I guess I'll see what I can do to provide some level of proof, however we might disagree as to what hardcore training is.... :karated:

Certainly, although you should be aware that there is a defined standard for training for combat here on Bullshido. So it's not my idea of what Hardcore training is, it's what we advocate here, no matter what your martial art is.

And here I thought your standards would be higher than mine.

That remains to be seen. My standards may not necessarily be higher, just a different set of parameters.

Oh, well.... that leaves me out. I hate kimchi! But then, I am a picky eater! :XXpuke:

Hmmmm...no Kimchi?

Do you at least accept Lee Hyori as your personal lord & savior?

Well, here is one area where you and I definitely disagree. I believe that when forms are taught properly, learned correctly, and practiced vigorously with intense mental and physical fusion, they become alive. I agree they are not the focus of training, but are a valuable tool for reaching maximum potential in skills. Some say they can reach it without forms, but I question if they really have reached their pinnacle of abilities, or just a plateau with a view.

OK, first part, where we allow Matt Thorton explain to you what we mean when we use the term "aliveness".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3r-G33oKHc

Forms/Pumse/Hyung/whatever you want to call them, by definition, is not alive. That doesn't mean in an art like Taegwondo they don't have their place, believe me, it just means that they aren't alive. What we advocate is that no matter what your art, style, or system, is that the majority of your time be spent training in aliveness.

For further thoughts on forms & Taegwondo training, you're welcome to come to my seminar on October 17th. More information here.

I also disagree that one-steps are "completely useless" and should be done away with. You have formed your opinion from personal experience, or by what someone else said that you decided to agree with - for some reason. It is my experience that those who don't value one-steps, have never been properly taught the value of them. The human brain works in many intricate ways, and one-steps are a training tool that sharpens many aspects of the mind/body coordination for self defense.

I've been properly taught one-steps. It's not that there isn't value in training in such a method, it's that there is a much, much better way, and that is aliveness. There's nothing in one-steps that can't be trained in an alive fashion, and allow the trainee to develop a better, clearer understanding of the system that they wish to use in combat.

This is a fair request..... but it might take a while. I have never loaded a video up on the internet before, so I would have to compile a montage, and learn how to upload it.

No worries, take your time, and until then, continue posting and sharing ideas.

Also, do you have any youtube videos of yourself that I can view. If so, could you guide me to a link, or a page that already has links to your online videos.

There used to be some Throwdown videos of me somewhere, I'll see if I can find them.

[Blue_Knight]

Certainly, although you should be aware that there is a defined standard for training for combat here on Bullshido. So it's not my idea of what Hardcore training is, it's what we advocate here, no matter what your martial art is.

That's cool. I'm all for that! Is there a link to a thread or post that describes what Bullshido advocates as hardcore training?

Hmmmm...no Kimchi?

Do you at least accept Lee Hyori as your personal lord & savior?

Well, first of all, I'm married. Secondly, I'm a Christian, so I have only one personal Lord & Savior. However, I have to admit, that photo is hot!

OK, first part, where we allow Matt Thorton explain to you what we mean when we use the term "aliveness".

Alright, I watched the video and I can buy into that explanation as a definition of "Aliveness." It sounds more like personal Jargon to me rather than a widely accepted doctrine. I'd have to check, but it sounds like something Ed Parker said. Anyhow, the explanation is sound for that use of the term "Aliveness"

On the other hand, I am not one to place too much of an emphasis on one area of training just because it seems like the best. Many things like forms and one-steps provide a solid foundation upon which "alive" training can be improved.

For example, one could become good at combat with firearms by just engaging in live combat against real live opponents. However, I believe that there are many skills of live combat that are enhanced by breaking them down, and training on them carefully. Soldiers and Police officers often shoot at stationary targets for hours to improve accuracy. Training is then stepped up to shooting at moving inanimate objects. Computerized shoot/don't shoot training is also utilized, and 3-D environments with random pop up targets is a good way to improve reflexes and accuracy without actually engaging in a live action firefight.

There's nothing in one-steps that can't be trained in an alive fashion...

I disagree. One-steps gives you a real live human being to target, yet allows you to slow things down, analyze it, repeat it over and over without the distraction of resistance or change - get it right, then move on. Also, one-steps are not always done with one punch to the same target. Advanced one-steps use left or right hand or even kicks, at various targets, and include multiple attacks. It is a developmental, analytical process that "alive" training does not have. Alive training puts the skills to the test, and forces the student to adapt and go with the flow of the situation, but forms and one-steps puts information into the brain and sharpens skills that makes the alive training better - imo.

There used to be some Throwdown videos of me somewhere, I'll see if I can find them.

I would really appreciate that, and I will get mine up as soon as I can.

Blue Knight

[It is Fake]

For example, one could become good at combat with firearms by just engaging in live combat against real live opponents. However, I believe that there are many skills of live combat that are enhanced by breaking them down, and training on them carefully. Soldiers and Police officers often shoot at stationary targets for hours to improve accuracy. Training is then stepped up to shooting at moving inanimate objects. Computerized shoot/don't shoot training is also utilized, and 3-D environments with random pop up targets is a good way to improve reflexes and accuracy without actually engaging in a live action firefight.

See, you get it but, you warped the analogy. All your scenarios use a gun, a bullet, and targets. You know it is called "Live Fire" training. Then the degree of difficulty is moved up to progressively.

Forms do not do that at all. Forms are like a gun with blanks. You may aim at the target, but you'll never know if you have any accuracy. They have flash and make noise but, are no threat. They aren't done under pressure, IMO, their use has been warped in all styles of Martial Arts that continue to practice them. I do 2-man sets, in my style, and they are not alive. Also, please don't say "imaginary target. Yes, shooting a gun at a target paper is still a target, that is visible, which you can use to target.

Matt Thorton is using an old concept don't disregard because you "heard it before." Yes, many people said it but more forgot what it means.

[1point2]

That's cool. I'm all for that! Is there a link to a thread or post that describes what Bullshido advocates as hardcore training?

I disagree. One-steps gives you a real live human being to target, yet allows you to slow things down, analyze it, repeat it over and over without the distraction of resistance or change - get it right, then move on. Also, one-steps are not always done with one punch to the same target. Advanced one-steps use left or right hand or even kicks, at various targets, and include multiple attacks. It is a developmental, analytical process that "alive" training does not have. Alive training puts the skills to the test, and forces the student to adapt and go with the flow of the situation, but forms and one-steps puts information into the brain and sharpens skills that makes the alive training better - imo.

1. I try to stay away from analogies (like guns) since they muddle the discussion. That said, IIF has the correct.

2. There are tons of threads about Aliveness, its definition, its application, its methods, and its relationship to all sorts of arts. Search around a bit, particularly for Aesopian's threads, and threads in the JMA forum. I believe that we went through this exact topic (one-steps) about two months ago in the KMA (JMA?) forum.

3. Alive training is a developmental process. It's not about throwing someone into something over their head.

The relevant technique here is the "I method," which is to say, "Introduce-Isolate-Integrate." Your argument about one-steps being a great way to "put information into the brain and sharpen skills" doesn't hold water. What skills are they using? Repeating the process of defending a predetermined, known attack without footwork, timing or resistance doesn't impart any useful skills. Even if it did, it would be improved by adding those elements, wouldn't it?

Secondly, having "a real live human being to target" is shifting the terminology. Yes they're alive, but that doesn't make one-steps alive or useful. You say one-steps and forms "allow you to slow things down, analyze it, repeat it over and over without the distraction of resistance or change," but ignore the fact that these distractions are precisely what make you better at the given skill. Analysis and dead repetition doesn't help.

Lastly, I'm familiar with the "get it right, then move on" philosophy of training. What does it produce? People who say that the drill can be modified this way or that, but who rarely--if ever--get around to doing it. It produces people who can do static one-steps and forms very well, but who can't apply that "knowledge" that they took enormous amounts of time to "get right." It turns out that "getting it right" means "doing it picture-perfect in a scenario that isn't useful."