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  1. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/28/2008 6:15am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nightowl
    Thanks for the input guys. I'm going to stay a bit after class and see if I can find some people to work with on these.
    Out of curiosity, how long have you been doing Judo?
  2. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/28/2008 7:04am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The answer is a bit complicated.

    I started in November of last year, going a fair amount at first (gotta get down those ukemi). However December and January were sketchy with Christmas break, finals, and getting really really sick. So sick in fact, that I ended up in the ER and was given orders from the doctor to take a break from judo for a few months or face one or more of my internal organs exploding.

    So I ended starting up from pretty much square one again and have been going since April. As of this month I have been averaging about oh- about 3 or 4 times a week and figure that I have about a few months total experience under my belt. Sparring doesn't start until after 5th kyu (which I should get at the end of next month) so you have to factor that in to how much 'experience' I have as well.

    (otherwise my go to style is dirty boxing that picked up from training a stint at a Straight Blast Gym or pulling guard/crappling from a month of BJJ)

    How's that work for you?
  3. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/28/2008 7:07am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The backdoor escape is in my experience the best one, especially where there's a substantial weight advantage. Loading them onto your hips for the bridge and roll is difficult when they're aware enough to attempt to keep their hips close to the ground. A pendulum sit-up has worked wonders for me from kuzure-kesa-gatame, but it rapidly suffers from diminishing returns as sparring partners increase in size.

    It is also easier to escape kesa-gatame in no-gi - someone with good arm control in a tight gi kesa walking round in circles is very, very hard to defeat. The main priority has to be setting up the escape before the hold is fully adjusted. Key points:
    1) try to keep from being flattened, stay on your side and not your back
    2) keep your near elbow to the floor and jam it against your opponent's hips
    3) come to your knees and base out

    If your opponent is over-anxious to keep the kesa and does not abandon it as soon as it is lost (not uncommon in judo), it is possible even to sometimes get a submission in the process of the escape - as you come to your knees alongside your opponent, keep their arm tight against your neck, holding the wrist, put your formerly far arm across their back and drive into them to apply ude-garami.
  4. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/28/2008 7:15am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Right- I can usually roll over guys of roughly the same size but a lot of the guys in my group are big- two short and stocky and one just big. The latter is a bit easier to escape from but the one 200+ lb guy is just ridiculous.

    I've been looking up some videos on the bridge and roll- I'm not sure if I currently have the flexibility to pull off hooking my leg over them. I'll search for the backdoor escape as well.
  5. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 8:38am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alright- I worked on Kesa escape practice tonight with who shall be reffered to from here on out as 'The Polish Guy'. (A kickass grappler)

    I was shown the following escapes:

    Bridge and roll
    The backdoor escape (I think, it's where you create space to slip out from their arm from the back)
    Breaking the hold by locking in their legs
    Some weird rocking thing that I am not even going to attempt to pull off.


    I'm going to drill these tomorrow as well as I am SLOWLY getting them. My biggest probelm so far is being able to roll people after the bridge- I'm having a lot of trouble with it.

    Of course I put it to the test against the toughest guy by body type- 5'5 and over 200lbs. He's a nightmare to do newaza with even for some of the experienced guys, as he can play both the small and big guy game. Failed miserably. Will try more training tomorrow.
  6. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 9:37am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You need more training time. You're a brand new novice working against people bigger and more technically skilled than you are.

    This thread needs to be locked. The ground grappling at the kodokan isn't soso, you just don't know what you're doing.
  7. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 10:01am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've been to multiple judo and BJJ gyms, as well as seen my fair share of grappling matches and fights. I've stayed after class and watched newaza randori by the black belts, as well as seen what is taught in the 'advanced' class as it is right across from mine. I may not know how to pull it off or do it, but I have seen many examples of ground fighting. To drag out the decaying corpse of an argument: A baseball fan can know his baseball and still suck.




    The kodokan newaza cirruculum is very good for what it is for: a judo match, but not submission grappling. Therefore the majority of the time when newaza is being taught, it is being taught for the pin. I very rarely see submission work being taught, but ocasionally you'll see the classical arm bar or such. At the same time very little realative time is given to newaza study, and as such the ground fighting at the kodokan is alright but you need to ask around for help as the teachers won't cover many things in class. This is what I meant by 'soso'

    Now the blackbelt randori, that is different. They are often free sparring on the 7th floor, and there you'll see many different newaza techniques being used. However they aren't really students per se.

    Thus when I was reffering to the newaza being soso, I was meaning the standard judo classes and what they teach you vs. what you have to learn yourself. As for what people do on the mats, that varies from the aformentioned 'soso' to sublime. I'm sorry I didn't make that clearer. But wither way I am at the kodokan and you are not so how would you know if it is good or bad either way? I wasn't meaning Judo in general.
  8. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 10:05am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So judo ne waza is very good for what it is intended for, but not for a different though related sport. You're interested in the other sport.

    Why are you training at the kodokan? If you want to train judo, train judo. If you want to train judo to supplement your bjj for bjj tournaments, worry about the ne waza when at bjj.
  9. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 10:16am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pins yes, but even beyond that not a lot of the Judo newaza curriculum is not shown. And I happen to like newaza practice while I focus on the standing grappling (hence Judo). Nevertheless newaza randori is something that is done, and as such I find what is taught to students is very limited even for judo and belive that a little more should be taught. I don't expect it to become BJJ, but I feel that it wouldn't hurt if the kodokan school added a bit more.

    You don't have to accept my opinion. You are free to come out and form your own. However mine after three months of being there is that what is taught (not necessarily what people actually use) is soso for groundwork in the grand scheme of things. It's not bad (they do teach the Kesa gatmae well), but not the best. Hence soso. I'm not quite sure why you have an issue with this
    Last edited by nightowl; 5/29/2008 10:19am at .
  10. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 10:20am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Because you've only been training three months, aren't really sparring yet and have already decided that you know better than instructors at the kodokan (based on a few weeks here and there, and watching tape). If this were some unknown school or a style that advocated not sparring ever, it would be one thing. However, we're talking about the kodokan which has, on occasion, produced proficient grapplers.
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