The Whoring of Kempo

**foxguitar** · Posted On: 7/13/2008 9:14pm

Originally Posted by metalforlunch

Depends on what you're looking for. As far as Hawaiian style ke?po goes, Generally CHA 3 will have brutal KeNpo schools, Adriano Emperado Method Kajukenbo schools will likely also be badass. Can't speak for Kara-Ho Kempo, but that was what William Chow was calling his style when he died, so that speaks for itself. Most Karazenpo Goshinjutsu schools are reputed to have good hard training as well. Most styles of Japanese kempo, which are unrelated to the hawaiin styles, can differ. You might check out Ryu-te Renmei if you have a chance, thats the organization that Seiyu Oyata runs. Shorinji Kempo is also in there, although I don't know much about it other than it looks like a mix of aikijujutsu and karate. You have to use your common sense though, just like Judo, Kyokushin, or Jiujitsu, you might get something thats not quite what you're looking for, I.E. maybe the BJJ school focuses more on self defense than competition. There's a BJJ place near me that's like that, most of the people I've spoken to from there compete on their own rather than as a team from that school. Likewise, with Kyokushin you know you're going to have hard sparring, but some schools may focus more on forms than sparring and vice versa.

Unfortunately with Ke?po, you can have anything in between, and the crappy dead pattern punch in and larp schools far outnumber the realistic ones. I've been training kempo for seven years, since I was 14, and watched first hand as the sparring at my school decreased and became lighter and lighter contact as the school grew. It's damned near impossible to get my instructor to offer any advice on sparring, all he wants to do are forms and techniques with no live application training. He DOES talk about how you SHOULD train alive, but then doesn't do it. This is driving me towards a Kyokushin karate school around me that's run by a former Uchi Deshi of Mas Oyama, because I'm tired of being ignored when I request full contact sparring or some sort of realistic free-fighting thing. It doesn't help that the majority of students at the place are 35 and older (no offense to any older people older than that on here) who are in **** shape and won't spar hard because they're afraid of getting hurt. On top of that, we just joined the association of a hawaiian who WANTS us to practice HARD like they do over in hawaii, including 2 on 1 sparring drills full contact for a certain time period until the limit runs out, or until you get beaten so bad you can't continue. Solid practice right? Well my instructor decided it would be a good idea to do that, just with a point sparring system. The two guys attacking you can't score points, but once you score five, you're all done. Wait to destroy a drill that actually might benefit your students. I'm waiting it out to see if things shape up or get shitty. If they get any shittier I'm gone.

The problem you're facing is most dojos couldn't keep their doors open if they offered full contact . The majority of students are kids or older people who can't afford to get hurt because they have jobs to go to.

Definitely Mas Oyama's style or Seido Kan which is Nakumura Sensei which is closely related to Oyama's style or MA .

Most traditional arts will be light to moderate contact.

good luck .

**metalforlunch** · Posted On: 7/13/2008 9:52pm

Thanks man. Also been wanting to check out Griffins Kajukenbo, Grandmaster Griffin passed away this spring but he has a student who's a 6th dan down in Gales Ferry CT, which is about an hour away. If anybody knows anything about it I'd appreciate any info. Griffin's Judo and Karate international is the school name, the instructor is Sigung Russell Correia. Don't mean to threadjack, but if you guys know anything I would appreciate it. Seems like a solid school.

**GIJoe6186** · Posted On: 7/14/2008 1:10am

Saying they will go out of business if they offer full contact is a lie I think.

BJJ schools stay open, boxing schools stay open.

Theres nothing stopping a karate school full of kids and hobbyists from having full contact sparring and real training. Not everyone has to spar though, but the techniques should be the same.

Theres no reason to go into a karate school and learn chambering your punches, forms or tons of crappy self defense moves that don't and can't work.

If you go to a kickboxing school, you don't have to spar, but you still learn the same jab and cross everyone else does.

**LI GUY 1** · Posted On: 7/14/2008 2:28am

Agreed, having a school that trains real and with contact does not mean the soccer moms and peewee kids are training balls to the wall looking for KO's.

Training "alive" does not mean full contact sparring, although full contact sparring is an alive training method.

Plenty of people at boxing gyms are not fighters, but they still come to work out and pay the bills.

**foxguitar** · Posted On: 7/14/2008 12:26pm

I agree to a point but disagree respectfully to another point ,

Most people that go into a BJJ or a Boxing gym are type A action people who want that rough and tumble ****. Other wise why bother . I agree that any karate school should have sparing , after all if you never hit or get hit how will you know the **** works . I think sparring with gear should be required . My dip **** ex brother in law got 2nd dan in WTF TKD , He had pretty techniques but only very rarely sparred . I think he would get his ass kicked with all his pretty flying triple flying axe kicks because he wouldnt know how or when to use it.

On the other hand the Mr. Williams the lawyer , Or Mr. Jones the electrician isnt going to last lin a school where he gets his clocked cleaned or Ms. Jazzerise either.

but billy joe Cop or Johnny the military man will love that **** .

I think schools have to find happy mediums and alot of what you guys say I agree .

**GIJoe6186** · Posted On: 7/14/2008 1:17pm

Mr. Wiliiams doesn't have to spar to train at a real school. Theres tons of things a karate school can do besides spar that is still training alive.

Kata and self defense techniques found in Kempo don't cut it.

**foxguitar** · Posted On: 7/14/2008 1:32pm

Originally Posted by GIJoe6186

Mr. Wiliiams doesn't have to spar to train at a real school. Theres tons of things a karate school can do besides spar that is still training alive.

Kata and self defense techniques found in Kempo don't cut it.

Im agreeing with you thats why I said have to find a happy medium , There are students who want to go balls to the walls all out but the majority of martial students are people that have never had a real fight, But yes you definitely some realism in it , Thats why I think a happy medium is best.

I dont know if any one art all by it self completely cuts it ,

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 7/14/2008 2:05pm

Foxguitar,

If Suzy Homemaker or Joe Lawyer can't handle training, they shouldn't be taking a MARTIAL art. There are much more appropriate ways for them to get in shape. Making allowances for people who couldn't hack it is why we have so many crap dojos in the first place.

That being said, I think you're severly underestimating Suzy Homemaker & Joe Lawyer's ability to handle hard training. At my school, we have the "hardcore" types; Marines, bouncers, guys who train in BJJ & come to me for striking, and college age males. Yet, training along side them I have a Congressional lobbyist, a couple computer geeks, & several sorority girls.

Actually training to fight does not mean that every practice is Fight Club bare knuckle brawling.

Your argument is a strawman.

**foxguitar** · Posted On: 7/14/2008 2:21pm

Originally Posted by Errant108

Foxguitar,

If Suzy Homemaker or Joe Lawyer can't handle training, they shouldn't be taking a MARTIAL art. There are much more appropriate ways for them to get in shape. Making allowances for people who couldn't hack it is why we have so many crap dojos in the first place.

That being said, I think you're severly underestimating Suzy Homemaker & Joe Lawyer's ability to handle hard training. At my school, we have the "hardcore" types; Marines, bouncers, guys who train in BJJ & come to me for striking, and college age males. Yet, training along side them I have a Congressional lobbyist, a couple computer geeks, & several sorority girls.

Actually training to fight does not mean that every practice is Fight Club bare knuckle brawling.

Your argument is a strawman.

ok , thats cool, If I was in the area Id love to check out your school. much respect

**mildly_alarming** · Posted On: 7/18/2008 11:59pm

Ehh....I must say, you're right, my friend's dad owned a Kempo place and he ran out of business due to how many people didn't do Kempo because they wanted to be 'unique' and because there was an asian dude teaching Karate (not racist, I'm asian myself...) and an ex-marine teaching Taekwondo (I'm not sure he was telling the truth) anyways, Kempo tends to be neglected because Kempo isn't glorified....so, the whoring of Kempo is a result of the instructors needing money.....badly I'm not saying my Friend's dad whored his dojo, quite the opposite, he tried to stay professional, and made the tests just as hard and focused on achievement as it used to be. sadly, he had to close it down....because it was too hard compared to the Karate guy doling out belts like crazy and the Taekwondo guy giving out a 'gold belt' certificate after a week....(is that a real rank...?)