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  1. codo3500 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2008 8:14am


     Style: BJJ/Muay Thai (MMA)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry to bring a dead thread back to life, however i have a minor disagreement with Teh El Macho's argument that the Average Joe is incapable of weight/strength gains regardless of steroid usage.

    While I totally agree that without a well planned diet, and a training plan, the average joe will not make gains, there is neither the nutritional content in the average joe's diet, or the amount of trauma caused to the muscle tissue to cause it to repair in such a way to cause hypertrophy, or to increase strength. This one is just a fact of life, walk into any gym, and do so again a year later, and plenty of blokes will be there lifting the same weights, and looking exactly the same.

    The thing that i oppose in your argument is in my opinion, the underestimation of the power of anabolic steroids. Lets take for example a very strong (and yes, highly toxic) steroid, Anadrol. I have a link here: "http://www.druglib.com/abstract/he/hengge-ur_hiv-clin-trials_20030500.html", this shows the gains from minor exercise in HIV patients, and their gains. Having the steroids had an obvious effect, yes this may have something to do with them having HIV, but i have seen other articles with similar results on healthy older males, getting increased strength and weight gain from minor exercise, you'll just have to take my word for it as i cant find the article right now.

    Anyway, to my point, these people in my opinion would constitute the average joe, yes they have some form of routine happening in their weight training, but so do most average joe's and gymrats. While some weight gain may come from water retention, a muscle gain would obviously be apparent.

    Now to be fair, the increase in appetite may have helped, therefore constituting more nourishment in the diet, but i dont believe eating alot and training the same muscle on the same day of the week is beyond the average joe, and thus believe that with steroids the average joe can make gains.

    To speak from personal experience and observations, the average joe can make tremendous gains just fooling around with weights while on the stuff with minimal adjustment to their diet and training regiment. I ofcourse do not recommend steroid use, as i believe most people who use them do so while being very uninformed and using them in a very unsafe manner.
  2. bob is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2008 9:14am


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For what it's worth I've seen this film and I'd recomend it to anyone who has even a vague interest in the topic. It's very thoughtful and somewhat poignant (the narrator and director has two brothers who are long term steroid users).
  3. nisezoom is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2008 9:39am


     Style: BJJ (noob)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've seen it too and it's a damn good show, looking forward to the DVD as hopefully it'll include some of the fallout from the making of the film.

    Several of the participants had some very negative reactions to it, both brothers of the director were pretty much vilified by those around them. Can't say too much without giving some spoilers, but genrally it doesn't seem to have worked out well for them.
  4. Nihonto is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/22/2008 10:20pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    Yep, the let you train harder and more often, primarily because they allow you to recover faster. When you train, whether is lifting, grappling or running, you abuse you body. It needs to recover from its wear and tear (and from injuries). Steroids do that. All the other benefits (greater strenght, stamina, or size) stem from accelerated recovery alone.
    Stupid question alert ...

    But when the doc shoots a sore muscle full of cortizone, is he not administering a steroid to an abused over trained muscle in order to accelerate recovery? It seems a bit fuzzy as to where the line is drawn. Or is it just up to the doc to say its an injury and not just over training? ... The only reason I ever see a doctor is for cortisone shots or ear draining ....
  5. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/23/2008 9:19am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by codo3500
    Sorry to bring a dead thread back to life, however i have a minor disagreement with Teh El Macho's argument that the Average Joe is incapable of weight/strength gains regardless of steroid usage.
    Where the **** did I say that?

    You have 48 hours to BOTH quote the post where I said that as well as the link to that post.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  6. DannyMac is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/23/2008 12:48pm


     Style: TKD, Wrestling (retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Though Teh El laid out much more concisely and back it up with facts, this thread made me think of an apropos quote from an acquaintance of mine:

    You could inject yourself with every steroid known to man and you still wouldn't be worthy of carrying Barry's jock out onto the field.
  7. Raining_Blood is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/24/2008 5:01am


     Style: Wrestling, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Macho I also have to disagree with you here. I totally agree with your point of high levels of athletic potential being a requirement for high levels of success with steriods and I will add that although steriods can allow one to achieve beyond their genetic limit so few people are close to that limit it isnt really a point of contention.

    Now to where I disagree, you said
    Steroids does not make you grow faster and easier.
    but this isnt entirely true. Steriods promote a very positive nitrogen balance which means that even with no exercise there will be greater protein uptake and less protein breakdown. This naturally means that given any stimuli the muscle will have a greater source of protein from which to begin repairing. While this mainly translates to a quicker recovery time it does by definition mean that muscle will be built more easily compared to a non steriod user.
  8. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/24/2008 12:13pm

    Join us... or die
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah... there was a study I meant to dig up and post yesterday that indicated that when you administer small doses of anabolic steroids to untrained, sedentary individuals and then they don't train, they still gain some muscle and lose some fat. Sorry I don't have it on hand - I'll try to find it tonight.
  9. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/24/2008 3:19pm

    Join us... or die
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fairly sure this isn't the study I was thinking of (the "for contraception" part makes my nutsack twitch), but it'll work for starters:

    There were no detectable changes in fat-free mass, fat mass, muscle strength, or bone density in controls. The administration of testosterone enanthate in pharmacological doses for 6 months resulted in a modest reduction in fat mass and small increases in fat-free mass, muscle strength, and bone density. These changes do not support the use of androgens for enhancing athletic performance.
    -Young et al., "Body composition and muscle strength in healthy men receiving testosterone enanthate for contraception"

    There's also this... the title of the study really includes all the caveats I'd attach to it, so I'll put it first:

    Ferreira et al., "The Influence of 6 Months of Oral Anabolic Steroids on Body Mass and Respiratory Muscles in Undernourished COPD Patients"
    Both groups participated in inspiratory muscle exercises during weeks 9 to 27 and cycle ergometer exercises during weeks 18 to 27.
    Weight increased in nine of 10 subjects who received anabolic steroids (mean, +1.80.5 kg; p<0.05), whereas the control group lost weight (minus0.40.2 kg). The study group's increase in BMI differed significantly from that of the control group from weeks 3 to 27 (p<0.05). Lean body mass increased in the study group at weeks 9 and 18 (p<0.05). Arm muscle circumference and thigh circumference also differed between groups (p<0.05).

    Edit: I just want to make it clear - I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong or pick any fights here. I simply recall hearing that indicates that anabolic steroids have been shown to cause increases in muscle and decreases in fat, even without a properly-structured resistance training program. These studies aren't the one I remember seeing, so I'll keep looking and let y'all know if and when I find it, okay?
    Last edited by TheRuss; 9/24/2008 3:21pm at .
  10. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/26/2008 5:11pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All right, I think that the previous two studies and this one are enough to make my point. None of them are perfect, but between the three, things are fairly consistent.

    Bhasin et al., "Older Men Are as Responsive as Young Men to the Anabolic Effects of Graded Doses of Testosterone on the Skeletal Muscle"

    Methodological notes:

    Good:
    We excluded those who in the previous year had taken androgenic steroids, including dehydroepiandrosterone and androstenedione, GH, or other anabolic agents. Men who were participating in sports events, resistance exercise training, or moderate to heavy endurance exercise training were also excluded
    The men were asked not to undertake resistance training or moderate to heavy endurance exercise. These instructions were reinforced every 2 wk.
    Bad:
    Men were treated with monthly injections of a long-acting GnRH agonist (Lupron depot, 7.5 mg; TAP, North Chicago, IL) to suppress endogenous testosterone production
    So with those caveats, refer to Figure 4.




    Also, apparently Bigger, Stronger, Faster* comes out on DVD on Tuesday. I'm pretty jazzed.
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