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  1. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 7:08am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, the fact that you put the picture of the syntol-injected dude in a steroid discussion means you need to learn more about the subject - in other words, don't make statements. Ask questions instead.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  2. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 7:12am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On a side note, anybody hear of that poll in the 80's where 80% of Olympic althletes surveyed would take a pill that would make sure that they would win gold? The catch was that they would die in ten years but if they didn't take it they would never win.
    You are kidding, right? Tell me about the giant alligators that crawl on the NYC sewage system, too! :tongue3:
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  3. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 7:23am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    Easy.


    #3. The average gym-going Joe that lifts weights more often is a bicep curling fag... nuff said.

    #4. The average gym-going, non-bicep curling Joe does try to weight train, but is uneducated. He's in better shape than most people, but he'll never add more than 10-15lbs of lean mass (this is assuming he leans first.) He simply works out for fun, for an ideal, for stress relieve, all of these being excellent, commendable reasons. But he does not train. Working out =/= train.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/1...s_n_68358.html

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7424369/

    http://www.hesfit.com/men/comment/st...s-average-joe/

    http://www.time.com/time/health/arti...671137,00.html

    Apparently this is the main user base for steroids. Gym rats.

    please never again put "average Joe" next to steroids on the same sentence
    I think that it is fair putting non athletes in the 'Average Joe' realm. And yes, I agree that Barry Bonds puts in a lot of work in his baseball. He had lots of talent before taking roids. However he then went on to become the best homerunner by injecting himself, which in my opinion should then require an asterisk by his record. Perhaps you don't feel this way- many athletes are open to steriods, or at least not opposed to them because they still require work (I was wrong to call them an instant high). However guessing by the way he has been villified by the public, a lot of people don't feel that way.

    So are you going to be catching the movie?:waijima(average joe)
  4. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 7:29am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    You are kidding, right? Tell me about the giant alligators that crawl on the NYC sewage system, too! :tongue3:
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ull/117/3/e577
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...tid=2219897#B1

    Statistics. 50+% were willing to die if the won all competitions within the next 5 years according to a sports illustrated survey.


    Also, the fact that you put the picture of the syntol-injected dude in a steroid discussion means you need to learn more about the subject - in other words, don't make statements. Ask questions instead.
    Yeah, I know....I'm working on it though. In the meantime I don't mind pursuing a loosing argument if I learn something out of it.

    Ok, here's a question for you (I'll try and cover all of the varibles):
    If identical twins underwent the same rigorous lifting for 6 months (same diet, etc), and one used steroids, would there be a significant difference in bulk or streangth?
    Last edited by nightowl; 5/19/2008 7:35am at .
  5. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 8:09am

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So?

    Just because they abuse it, that doesn't mean they get bigger faster and easier, nor does it mean that the individuals that do make gains are "average joes". I've seen pot-bellied, chicken leg dudes using dbol and still look like ****.

    Seriously, people who make gains are anything but average joes, or the average gym rat. I see a shitload of gym rats with their creatine, their protein shake (and some of them with their gear) throwing their money away because they never had a proper training and diet program to make that **** work.

    It takes a particular type of individual with the mental and physical fortitude and discipline to make that work, and believe me when I tell you that it's not your average joe or gym rat.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightowl
    I think that it is fair putting non athletes in the 'Average Joe' realm.
    And it is fair to say they don't grow. They won't grow. Period. Average Joes work out. They don't train. You need to train to grow, steroids or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightowl
    And yes, I agree that Barry Bonds puts in a lot of work in his baseball. He had lots of talent before taking roids. However he then went on to become the best homerunner by injecting himself, which in my opinion should then require an asterisk by his record. Perhaps you don't feel this way- many athletes are open to steriods, or at least not opposed to them because they still require work (I was wrong to call them an instant high). However guessing by the way he has been villified by the public, a lot of people don't feel that way.
    Non-sequitur. The legitimacy of sport achievements while using steroids is a topic worth discussing, but it does not lead credence to believe the average joe will grow faster and easier by using steroids. The average joe will never grow regardless of what he takes.

    The athlete will. The average joe will not. It is the athlete that makes steroids work. It is not steroids that become a patch for the average joe's holes in his training or lack thereof.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightowl
    So are you going to be catching the movie?:waijima(average joe)
    Meh, don't know yet.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  6. Scrapper is offline
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    Fear and bullets.

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 8:15am

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Some of these arguments are confusing me. I confess to not being an expert on the tpoic.

    Do you guys who are educated on the topic of roids deny that roids allow a diligent athlete to achieve physical results in excess of their genetic potential?

    It has been my understanding that roids have exactly that potential if used accordingly. That's one of the issues that concerns me as afar as using them in competitive sports goes.

    I totally understand that steroids are used for recovery and healing (That's one of their better attributes); they let 35-year-old men train like teenagers again. But I hear a lot of people saying that they could have gotten just as big/strong/ fast without the roids. I find that to be difficult to understand.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  7. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 8:20am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nightowl
    http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ull/117/3/e577
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...tid=2219897#B1

    Statistics. 50+% were willing to die if the won all competitions within the next 5 years according to a sports illustrated survey.
    Sports Illustrated? Dude. Anyways, can you quote verbatin where you found that athletes would die in a decade after taking those supplements? What were their ages? In what countries? What supplements and on what dossage? Don't just throw links. Quote them.

    Now, the only cases that I'm aware off are those that occured in Eastern Germany. They did inject their female athletes with a lot of ****. Some of them eventually had to had sex-change procedures because of it (this was a really fucked up case btw.)

    Keep in mind however, that this was waaay beyond what you usually see in your tipical steroid supplementation scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightowl
    Ok, here's a question for you (I'll try and cover all of the varibles):
    If identical twins underwent the same rigorous lifting for 6 months (same diet, etc), and one used steroids, would there be a significant difference in bulk or streangth?
    What were their physical capabilities before the test (where they novices or already experience)?

    What would their ages be?

    Most important of all, what kind of lifting? Rigorous lifting =/= effective training.

    Now, if you have a pair of twins that are training properly and eating well, and assuming they are both genetically the same and respond exactly to the same stimulus (which we know it's not true):

    1. if both were experienced liftes at the beginning, the one supplementing will have the greatest improvements (how great the difference is, that's hard to tell.)

    2. if both were inexperienced lifters, it's hard to tell (specially if they are young males full of testosterone already). Anyone at the beginning of a well-designed training program will make gains regardless. It will be hard to tell whether gains occur due to steroids or just natural ability present in one twin, but not the other.

    Again, it all depends on training program, not on rigorous lifting. All effective training programs are rigorous. Not all rigorous lifting are effective ...

    ... in fact, that's what fucks up the hardest-trying of the average joes (which is why they'll never go anywhere, roids or not.)
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 5/19/2008 8:22am at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  8. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 8:33am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper
    Some of these arguments are confusing me. I confess to not being an expert on the tpoic.

    Do you guys who are educated on the topic of roids deny that roids allow a diligent athlete to achieve physical results in excess of their genetic potential?
    Nope. At least, I don't deny that.

    My argument is that the average Joe will never get anywhere with steroids, because, well, he's an average Joe. A diligent athlete is not an average Joe. He/she already has what it takes to make them work for his/her athletic goals.

    Case in point: me. I'm an average Joe. I could pump my ass with roids, but I would not get anywhere beyond feeling and sleeping better. I'd need to train my ass intelligently to get them to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper
    It has been my understanding that roids have exactly that potential if used accordingly.
    Exactly, and that's what makes the difference between the average Joe, the casual lifter, and the athlete who actually trains rather than works out (more on that later.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrapper
    That's one of the issues that concerns me as afar as using them in competitive sports goes.

    I totally understand that steroids are used for recovery and healing (That's one of their better attributes); they let 35-year-old men train like teenagers again. But I hear a lot of people saying that they could have gotten just as big/strong/ fast without the roids. I find that to be difficult to understand.
    No, I don't think they'd get as big or strong or faster as they are without using them. But they were already bigger/stronger/faster than the average joes. They were already athletes. They were already in a position to make them work (as opposed to the dudes who cluelessly inject themselves with them without having what it takes - physically and mentally - to make them work.)

    Seriously, I've seen pot-bellied, chicken-legged people injecting themselves in the locker rooms of LA Fitness and Golds Gym... and they still eat like crap, bicep curl until cows come home, lightly run on the threadmill for 40 minutes as they feel good about it.

    That is my contention. Steroids do not make one get bigger faster and easier. There is nothing easy about it. The person using them has to haul ass to make them work. He has to train, not just work out. It's not a panacea for the average Joe.

    Unless a person is really committed to an intelligent, aggressive program (be it for grappling or lifting), mid-long term, that person should not waste his money on it.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  9. Domite is offline
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    blotter art.

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 8:35am


     Style: San Shou

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    There. Fixed for ya.
    Funnier my way.
  10. Sakmongkol is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 8:39am


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It looks to me like it will turn steroids into the whipping boy of society. Again.
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