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  1. sheperd is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
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    Posted On:
    2/25/2010 12:05pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    America is one of the best counties in the world to live in and has some the best martial artists.

    We are also some of the most gullible.

    For example many people believe just because something is foreign it is better. They think that if a martial art has an asian sounding name it is superior in some way. It is not.

    What makes BJJ superior is that they actually spar, compete and practice, and it takes a long time to achieve a black belt. A black belt is supposed to be better than a purple belt etc.

    A black belt in BJJ means something. They all are good.

    A black belt in Choi Kwang Do depends on the person. Some are good and some are awful. None have to compete or spar to achieve their belts. Some aren't even in shape.


    Just as I don't believe in "no touch knockouts" or magic "chi" power. I also don't believe that Choi Kwang Do is the ultimate martial art. It is a shady business that preys upon peoples gullibility in order to take their money.

    It also plays upon peoples desire to own their own businesses. This is why they try to get people to open so many schools whether they are qualified or not.
  2. ecline is offline

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    Ann Arbor, MI
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2010 5:12pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok, admittedly a noob to this site (this is my very first, "virgin" post). However, I have read through the entire, nearly 2 year long, thread.

    I have a passing familiarity with Choi Kwang Do, as my best friend's wife and two daughters are all now black belts. I have observed classes, and public black belt testings. And while not wanting to disparage CKD, i had made a number of observations that prompted me to pursue more information on the validity of some of CKD's claims, and it's effectiveness.

    Coming from a TKD background myself (with a little Karate and Kung Fu thrown in), my first impressions of CKD upon viewing it were that it seemed much like a toned down version of TKD. As previously mentioned in this thread, many of the techniques are the same, just with some changed names. Just made more "circular" by all movements coming with a more "round house", bent elbow, bent knee movement. These being the differences I believe they would say are meant to put less stress on joints, tendons, etc. and so cause less injuries.

    As I have been looking into CKD, I have found a number of sources both Pro and Con.

    Let me say at this point that I have been, and remain, very skeptical of CKD, both on a number of claims it has made ("TKD crippled GM Choi so he developed this superior Martial Art that people could practice and not get injured", etc.), and on the effectiveness of CKD for self defense.

    Many others have plowed through the issues of no sparring, no ground work, etc. so I see no need to pursue that at this point.

    Instead I would like to focus my inquiries/observations onto the areas of proof of claims. It has been repeatedly raised throughout MadMonkey's inquiry into CKD that proof of a number of claims is required:

    * Proof of the claim that Master Choi was "crippled", or even severely injured by practicing Tae Kwon Do. As far as amiller127's assertions that no one has proven Choi wasn't crippled by TKD, logic dictates that that is not proof that he was.

    * Claims that he "sought out top scientists in the fields of human anatomy, kinesiology and physiology," and that CKD is "scientifically based".

    See: YouTube- Choi Kwang Do - Wes Sargent 11 Alive


    * I have seen other claims that between 1978 and 1987 Choi taught himself in the fields of bio-mechanics, human anatomy, kinesiology and physiology in order to develop this scientifically based martial art. Those are some pretty lofty fields to have claimed to have mastered in a 10 year period. Proof would be required of this knowledge as well, as measured against professionals in those fields.

    This appears to have been entirely scripted from a press release given to the TV channel by CKDMAI. In it Marshall Pereira goes on to state that if Bruce Lee were alive he would seek out Choi "because of the way he kicks and punches", then makes another claim requiring proof:

    * "There are many Grand Masters all over the world, but there is no one who can punch and kick like Master Kwang Jo Choi." I will admit, from video footage I have seen, GM Choi is very fast with powerful strikes. However, proof is required that no other Grand Master in the world has punches or kicks as fast and powerful as Choi's.

    * In the same video clip it claims that Choi "redsigned the [TKD] kicks and punches to deliver maximum force on his targets, and no impact on himself." I have to admit, this one makes me giggle. :lol: I am truly interested in how he has managed to completely bypass the laws of physics here. Definitely going to need some proof on this one!

    * The voice over in the newscast goes on to say that "Choi Kwang Do has become the fastest growing martial art on the planet." Please show me the statistics. And the process by which they were derived. :icon_wink

    That should be enough items to try to verify for now. :icon_wink

    However, after reading this thread, Choi is not the only one with claims I would like to see proven. A lot of "hearsay" evidence has been thrown out in here without much in the way of substantiation. A number of posters (kwangjochoi, saman, jonnie11, etc.) have thrown out some serious allegations of wrongdoing (criminal fraud, assault, vandalism, libel, slander) with no proof being offered, and shrouded in a veil of anonymity. I do not intend to cast aspersions on any of your characters, nor on the personal experiences you have put forth. However, without presenting any verifiable evidence for what otherwise amounts to "hearsay" from a darkened room, it is, like some of Choi's assertions, just bullshido. I do understand that for some reasons you may prefer to remain anonymous. If that is the case perhaps you would be willing to contact me directly at edjcline@gmail.com ? I promise to keep anything you would like confidential.

    The only place I have seen claims backed up with documentary evidence is on Master Koo's web site.

    MadMonkey - on a couple of occasions you posted that you had received further information from some outside sources in your investigation, but so far none has been forthcoming. Any chance of getting some of that posted up here anytime soon? I understand being busy with work, family and personal life, but please don't shake a big juicy steak in our faces if you're not going to occasionally throw us a bone. :bbd:

    This affects some people that I care a great deal about, and don't want to see hurt. But, my best friend's wife is moving into becoming an instructor, and if possible I would like to be able to help protect them from the types of experiences I see related here. Any further verifiable information that you all can provide would be EXTREMELY helpful, and GRATEFULLY appreciated.

    Peace!
    Ed

    P.S. Does anyone know where I can get my hands on a copy of GM Choi's book without having to fork over a hundred bucks for it? I would like to see some of the claims he makes in his own treatise on his own style.

    Thanks!
  3. saman is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2010 11:15am


     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    * Proof of the claim that Master Choi was "crippled", or even severely injured by practicing Tae Kwon Do. As far as amiller127's assertions that no one has proven Choi wasn't crippled by TKD, logic dictates that that is not proof that he was.

    * Claims that he "sought out top scientists in the fields of human anatomy, kinesiology and physiology," and that CKD is "scientifically based".

    * I have seen other claims that between 1978 and 1987 Choi taught himself in the fields of bio-mechanics, human anatomy, kinesiology and physiology in order to develop this scientifically based martial art. Those are some pretty lofty fields to have claimed to have mastered in a 10 year period. Proof would be required of this knowledge as well, as measured against professionals in those fields.

    This appears to have been entirely scripted from a press release given to the TV channel by CKDMAI. In it Marshall Pereira goes on to state that if Bruce Lee were alive he would seek out Choi "because of the way he kicks and punches", then makes another claim requiring proof:

    * "There are many Grand Masters all over the world, but there is no one who can punch and kick like Master Kwang Jo Choi." I will admit, from video footage I have seen, GM Choi is very fast with powerful strikes. However, proof is required that no other Grand Master in the world has punches or kicks as fast and powerful as Choi's.

    * The voice over in the newscast goes on to say that "Choi Kwang Do has become the fastest growing martial art on the planet." Please show me the statistics. And the process by which they were derived. :icon_wink


    This affects some people that I care a great deal about, and don't want to see hurt. But, my best friend's wife is moving into becoming an instructor, and if possible I would like to be able to help protect them from the types of experiences I see related here. Any further verifiable information that you all can provide would be EXTREMELY helpful, and GRATEFULLY appreciated.

    Peace!
    Ed

    P.S. Does anyone know where I can get my hands on a copy of GM Choi's book without having to fork over a hundred bucks for it? I would like to see some of the claims he makes in his own treatise on his own style.

    Thanks![/quote]

    Well, Ed, even in a court of law, first hand experience (especially with a multitude of witnesses) is NOT hearsay. Most of us you named experienced the things we write about here as we were ckdmai school owners who left for all the reasons we have posted. Your questions are good, though and generally believed by the rank and file as "Truth" (with a capital T) and go unquestioned because they are either disenfranchised TKD students or the isolated ckd student who really has no resources to the older Korean grandmasters who have known kwang choi for years in both Korea and the U.S. These 8th & 9th degree Kukkiwon certified grandmasters (who have absolutely no professional ax to grind with choi) say they never saw him in a wheelchair (as he used to purport, but it has descalated to just plain "crippled" recently). That's not to say that he didn't have some old injuries from doing old style TKD. But to claim that he "healed himself" by doing what is now ckd is a bit silly and overstated.

    Regarding the "scientific experts", one chiropractor (who was one of these scientific experts) asked that choi stop using his photo/quote as it was misconstrued in all the advertising hype. But, Roger Koo goes into more detail about the "Colorado" experiments (that choi claims untruly that he paid for etc.) so search around there. Students have come to me and asked if what they found on the internet about ckd is true. I have to tell them that, for all the years I was a loyal follower I believed the ckd line that it was all lies perpetrated by those failed school owners who were "kicked out" of ckd. But I came to personally discover that the horrible stories were 100% true. Believe me, I think most of us who have left felt stupid in the same way people who finally get divorced after a long, dysfunctional marriage, feel - like, how could I have been so blind!

    You know, you really have to wonder about the supposed humility (which choi claims is a guiding tenet of ckd) of a grandmaster who lets his strange little minions spread the crap about being the "best in the world". I can guarantee you that there are other 8th & 9th degree TKD grandmasters of similar age or younger who would kick choi's butt in a fight - but oh, yes - I forgot that he always told us to bite an attacker so I guess all those old guys better remember to put in their dentures and leave the mouth guards at home!

    Regarding the rest, there are just some claims that fly in the face of reasonable thinking. Sadly, most ckd students just believe these claims and continue to defend them (see amiller). If your friend's wife enjoys ckd then so be it. She probably has never been exposed to any other martial art for comparasin purposes. Just tell her that she should be very careful about the school owner deal as it will be the next bait dangled before her after becoming an instructor. Going in and teaching a few classes a week is a very different thing than getting involved on a financial level with ckdmai.
  4. ecline is offline

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    Mar 2010
    Location
    Ann Arbor, MI
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2010 2:21pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Well, Ed, even in a court of law, first hand experience (especially with a multitude of witnesses) is NOT hearsay. Most of us you named experienced the things we write about here as we were ckdmai school owners who left for all the reasons we have posted."

    Hi Saman,

    I certainly did not mean to impugn anyone by the hearsay comment. The only thing that makes it like hearsay for me, and, I believe, anyone else, is that due to the anonymity of this forum there is no ability to directly verify. That being said, because of the preponderance of information that I see simply on Master Koo's site, and CKDMAI's tendency toward litigation, I believe there is a great deal behind these accounts. If there were not, CKDMAI would have sued Koo to have the information removed from his web site. However, the truth is a valid defense in a court of law. :icon_thum

    On a slightly different tack, are you familiar with the name Erin Hansen? How about Michael Coleman or Gene Duncan? These are names associated with the dojang in Novi, MI that my friends attend. I have taken a good solid look at their web site, particularly the "About Us" section and all of what I would call "the propaganda" is there in full measure. I was particularly "impressed" with their comparison of CKD to "Traditional Martial Arts". Apparently, all the rest of us suck. Who knew?!?:flipando:

    It looks like Erin Hansen has been involved in the Michigan scene with CKD since 1988. She now has several schools under her, has sold her schools to others, and is just doing private lessons. And, I would assume collecting on any agreements she has with the new school owners, and the much touted "Refund/Rebate Plan".

    From what I have read, your allegory of a dysfunctional marriage seems most apt. Somehow, GM Choi and his organization seem to be able to engender a great deal of loyalty from those who become involved in CKD. Quite honestly, much greater than I have seen in other martial arts. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that.

    Thanks again for the quick, kind response! I'm going to find the other Bullshido CKD string now. BTW - Do you know of other forums where this is being discussed, besides Bullshido? If so, links would be appreciated.
  5. madmonkey is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2010 3:17pm


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ecline View Post
    Ok, admittedly a noob to this site (this is my very first, "virgin" post). However, I have read through the entire, nearly 2 year long, thread.

    I have a passing familiarity with Choi Kwang Do, as my best friend's wife and two daughters are all now black belts. I have observed classes, and public black belt testings. And while not wanting to disparage CKD, i had made a number of observations that prompted me to pursue more information on the validity of some of CKD's claims, and it's effectiveness.

    Coming from a TKD background myself (with a little Karate and Kung Fu thrown in), my first impressions of CKD upon viewing it were that it seemed much like a toned down version of TKD. As previously mentioned in this thread, many of the techniques are the same, just with some changed names. Just made more "circular" by all movements coming with a more "round house", bent elbow, bent knee movement. These being the differences I believe they would say are meant to put less stress on joints, tendons, etc. and so cause less injuries.


    As I have been looking into CKD, I have found a number of sources both Pro and Con.

    Let me say at this point that I have been, and remain, very skeptical of CKD, both on a number of claims it has made ("TKD crippled GM Choi so he developed this superior Martial Art that people could practice and not get injured", etc.), and on the effectiveness of CKD for self defense.
    Good to see you are investigating and have a sceptical yet enquiring approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecline View Post
    Many others have plowed through the issues of no sparring, no ground work, etc. so I see no need to pursue that at this point.

    Instead I would like to focus my inquiries/observations onto the areas of proof of claims. It has been repeatedly raised throughout MadMonkey's inquiry into CKD that proof of a number of claims is required:

    * Proof of the claim that Master Choi was "crippled", or even severely injured by practicing Tae Kwon Do. As far as amiller127's assertions that no one has proven Choi wasn't crippled by TKD, logic dictates that that is not proof that he was.
    This is a difficult one to prove or disprove given the amount of time since he was "crippled" and the vague nature of the injuries or condition his body and the fact that no specific date is mentioned. Unless Master Choi himself gets involved in this debate I doubt we can ever really answer this.


    Quote Originally Posted by ecline View Post
    * Claims that he "sought out top scientists in the fields of human anatomy, kinesiology and physiology," and that CKD is "scientifically based".

    See: YouTube- Choi Kwang Do - Wes Sargent 11 Alive
    If you have thoroughly read the thread then you will know who I contacted and the answer I got in this regard. I have not posted the emails at the request of the person concerned but I have relayed their content. The person I contacted was Professor Ben Johnson of Kennesaw University and he confirmed that his comments regarding the biomechanical effective of CKD was based on his own observations and that the CKD techniques had not been "scientifically tested" and that the traditional techniques had been demonstrated by CKD people as opposed to people from other arts. He also stated that to the best of his knowledge (he is a university professor, IOC member and local expert in biomechanics) CKD had not been biomechanically studied or tested by any one he knew professionally speaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecline View Post
    * I have seen other claims that between 1978 and 1987 Choi taught himself in the fields of bio-mechanics, human anatomy, kinesiology and physiology in order to develop this scientifically based martial art. Those are some pretty lofty fields to have claimed to have mastered in a 10 year period. Proof would be required of this knowledge as well, as measured against professionals in those fields.
    To understand those areas could be done by completing a sports science degree or could simply be self study. Any martial artist with enough experience has a good knowledge of anatomy, physics in regard to the body and some idea of kinesiology/physiology. The fact he "self studied" is not the issue, or the fact that his art is based on scientific concepts. The claim of mastery is the issue as you state but again without the participation of Choi this is not realistically going to be resolved.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecline View Post
    This appears to have been entirely scripted from a press release given to the TV channel by CKDMAI. In it Marshall Pereira goes on to state that if Bruce Lee were alive he would seek out Choi "because of the way he kicks and punches", then makes another claim requiring proof:

    * "There are many Grand Masters all over the world, but there is no one who can punch and kick like Master Kwang Jo Choi." I will admit, from video footage I have seen, GM Choi is very fast with powerful strikes. However, proof is required that no other Grand Master in the world has punches or kicks as fast and powerful as Choi's.
    Yet again without participation from Choi this will not be resolved

    Quote Originally Posted by ecline View Post
    * In the same video clip it claims that Choi "redsigned the [TKD] kicks and punches to deliver maximum force on his targets, and no impact on himself." I have to admit, this one makes me giggle. :lol: I am truly interested in how he has managed to completely bypass the laws of physics here. Definitely going to need some proof on this one!
    This claim is simply inaccurate with regard to physics but is an easier one to test and would only require a significantly skilled CKD practitioner to take part as well as a method to test the amount of impact experienced by the person as they hit the pad. (however unless your have the funds to arrange such a test this is a no goer)

    Quote Originally Posted by ecline View Post
    * The voice over in the newscast goes on to say that "Choi Kwang Do has become the fastest growing martial art on the planet." Please show me the statistics. And the process by which they were derived. :icon_wink
    Freedom of information request might through some light on this with regard to number of students worldwide CKD HQ has on role. But again it is a claim which does not set precise parameters such as fastest growing martial between which dates 2007-2008?. So this is simple hyperbole that is not really proveable as there are too many variables to consider. In a sense then it disproves itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecline View Post
    However, after reading this thread, Choi is not the only one with claims I would like to see proven. A lot of "hearsay" evidence has been thrown out in here without much in the way of substantiation. A number of posters (kwangjochoi, saman, jonnie11, etc.) have thrown out some serious allegations of wrongdoing (criminal fraud, assault, vandalism, libel, slander) with no proof being offered, and shrouded in a veil of anonymity. I do not intend to cast aspersions on any of your characters, nor on the personal experiences you have put forth. However, without presenting any verifiable evidence for what otherwise amounts to "hearsay" from a darkened room, it is, like some of Choi's assertions, just bullshido. I do understand that for some reasons you may prefer to remain anonymous. If that is the case perhaps you would be willing to contact me directly at edjcline@gmail.com ? I promise to keep anything you would like confidential.

    The only place I have seen claims backed up with documentary evidence is on Master Koo's web site.
    It is not necessarily Bullshido or hearsay evidence in all cases. Hearsay evidence is where the person giving evidence did not sense or witness the events in question in any way. So Saman having her Academy vandalised and recognising the offenders is not hearsay evidence. However without something like CCTV the validity of the evidence would come down to the belief of the court.

    Admittedly the claims about Choi wielding Guns threatening someone unless directly witnessed would be hearsay evidence or slander. Yet if only half these claims are true I can see why these people wish to stay anonymous. Equally be careful regarding master Koos website as some of it also hearsay or

    Quote Originally Posted by ecline View Post
    MadMonkey - on a couple of occasions you posted that you had received further information from some outside sources in your investigation, but so far none has been forthcoming. Any chance of getting some of that posted up here anytime soon? I understand being busy with work, family and personal life, but please don't shake a big juicy steak in our faces if you're not going to occasionally throw us a bone. :bbd:
    Any evidence I have gained I have shared on the thread as best I can. In one case the evidence seemed to disprove a minor claim regarding financial income given by CKD HQ to an instructor for new students received but again the source was not unbiased and was questionable in respect to how it was obtained and its accuracy was not without doubt. Therefore I have not included it on the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecline View Post
    This affects some people that I care a great deal about, and don't want to see hurt. But, my best friend's wife is moving into becoming an instructor, and if possible I would like to be able to help protect them from the types of experiences I see related here. Any further verifiable information that you all can provide would be EXTREMELY helpful, and GRATEFULLY appreciated.

    Peace!
    Ed

    P.S. Does anyone know where I can get my hands on a copy of GM Choi's book without having to fork over a hundred bucks for it? I would like to see some of the claims he makes in his own treatise on his own style.

    Thanks!
    We will do our best to help with this but a lot of claims made by CKD are pure hyperbole and some have even been used by TKD (eg fastest growing martial art in the world was originally used by TKD orgs to market them).

    We have already proven that CKD has not been Scientifically tested to demonstrate superiority to other martial arts, that a lot of its claims are not realistic or proveable and through sharing of experiences that it is not all smiles and sunshine within the ranks of CKD as an organisation.

    The best way to protect your friends is to share you doubts with them and take them to a different martials club of reputable skill, eg Boxing/Thai boxing/judo club and get them spar lightly with members of that club to show that not all the techniques they have learnt will work against a non compliant opponent.

    Best of luck
  6. saman is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2010 7:57am


     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    good job, madmonkey. And, ecline, yes I know those people you named. Why do they (ckdmai etc.) engender such loyalty? Well, despite their claims of having so many people change to ckd from other martial arts, I only met one or two over a 10 year period. The schools that "changed" seem to have all quit the organisation. The rank and file students generally have no other martial arts experience to compare with their school and, in truth, most martial arts students are very loyal to their master/school - we validate them, recognize them, help them feel successful. At ckd, some chief instructors are good at this and really push the hype - all of which sounds very good unless you really examine it. There is also the isolationist attitude (quite cult like) that sucks in people who need that sort of thing. In ckd, other arts aren't just touted as "dangerous", they are made fun of, lied about and anyone who does those arts must be stupid, crazy etc. So, there is a sense of impending shame if the student tries something else etc. You know, in kung fu, or judo or tkd, you can get pissed at your master, pack up your uniform and go find another school - most of the time you will just get a call from the old school or your absence will just be written off at some point. But, if you want to go to another ckd school in your area, you have to get permission from your current instructor, you know that all the instructors "work together", will talk about you etc. So you either stay (perhaps a bit dissatisfied but still exercising) or simply disappear.
    Another dirty little truth about ckd schools is that they never take anyone off their student rolls. So, a school owner will tell everyone (because numbers are THE most important thing in ckd) he/she has 250 students when, in reality there are fewer than 100 active students. When we left, they (ckdmai) told the world of ckd that our students were "leaving in droves and going to other ckd schools". Truth? 5 students ultimately did that. In my book, 5 is not a drove!
    I also found it incredibly amusing/amusingly disgusting that one ckd instructor found their way into TKD Times (where it is well known that people "buy" their way into "hall of fame" categories) as a "school owner of the year" and that she "owned 5 ckd schools". Truth? She taught from a recreation centre and at a few child care facilities. That's not to say she isn't a good instructor. Personally I always found her to be a bit shallow, but generally a nice person and generally performed ckd well. But, "school owner of the year" is questionable. It seems that Erin (whom you named and I know) qualifies for the title much more. But, the other gal is there in Atlanta and pretty much does whatever periera or choi ask of her.
    Madmonkey is right. Try to get your friends to to to another style school and test out their supposed "martial arts & self-defense" skills. I have had 2nd degree ckd black belts admit that they went to spar at a tkd school (thoroughly convinced that they would best the competition) and had their asses handed to them in about 20 seconds by a blue belt and a brown belt. ckd kicks are SLOW compared to tkd kicks and ckd defense is heavily dependent on punches. Well, in tkd sparring, it's hard to get in a punch if someone is kicking you in the head and any punchable parts of their anatomy is 4 or 5 feet away. I wouldn't want your friend to get hurt, but the biggest surprise for ALL ckd black belts is how it feels to actually get hit - since this lame "defense drill" crap they do is all non-contact.
    That's my rant for now. Keep on trying to help your friends.:karated: dance away the day with ckd!
  7. sheperd is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    3/08/2010 5:46pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On a slightly different tack, are you familiar with the name Erin Hansen? How about Michael Coleman or Gene Duncan? These are names associated with the dojang in Novi, MI that my friends attend. I have taken a good solid look at their web site, particularly the "About Us" section and all of what I would call "the propaganda" is there in full measure. I was particularly "impressed" with their comparison of CKD to "Traditional Martial Arts". Apparently, all the rest of us suck. Who knew?!?:flipando:

    I am familiar with Michael Coleman and Gene Duncan.
    Michael Coleman was a good instructor and his son Michael Coleman Jr. was probably one of the best. Both have left Choi years ago.

    Gene Duncan was a very good instructor along with his wife Nancy. Both have sadly passed away.

    Gene's brother Jeff Duncan is a very talented martial artist, instructor and businessman who left CKD years ago. He now runs a school in Michigan (Farmington Martial Arts) where he teaches a much improved version of CKD along with Jiu Jitsu and a combination of other arts.
    He told me he was totally disgusted with the way Choi treated his brothers family after Gene passed.
  8. cubs is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2010 12:16pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: mauy thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ecline View Post
    Ok, admittedly a noob to this site (this is my very first, "virgin" post). However, I have read through the entire, nearly 2 year long, thread.

    I have a passing familiarity with Choi Kwang Do, as my best friend's wife and two daughters are all now black belts. I have observed classes, and public black belt testings. And while not wanting to disparage CKD, i had made a number of observations that prompted me to pursue more information on the validity of some of CKD's claims, and it's effectiveness.

    Coming from a TKD background myself (with a little Karate and Kung Fu thrown in), my first impressions of CKD upon viewing it were that it seemed much like a toned down version of TKD. As previously mentioned in this thread, many of the techniques are the same, just with some changed names. Just made more "circular" by all movements coming with a more "round house", bent elbow, bent knee movement. These being the differences I believe they would say are meant to put less stress on joints, tendons, etc. and so cause less injuries.

    As I have been looking into CKD, I have found a number of sources both Pro and Con.

    Let me say at this point that I have been, and remain, very skeptical of CKD, both on a number of claims it has made ("TKD crippled GM Choi so he developed this superior Martial Art that people could practice and not get injured", etc.), and on the effectiveness of CKD for self defense.

    Many others have plowed through the issues of no sparring, no ground work, etc. so I see no need to pursue that at this point.

    Instead I would like to focus my inquiries/observations onto the areas of proof of claims. It has been repeatedly raised throughout MadMonkey's inquiry into CKD that proof of a number of claims is required:

    * Proof of the claim that Master Choi was "crippled", or even severely injured by practicing Tae Kwon Do. As far as amiller127's assertions that no one has proven Choi wasn't crippled by TKD, logic dictates that that is not proof that he was.

    * Claims that he "sought out top scientists in the fields of human anatomy, kinesiology and physiology," and that CKD is "scientifically based".

    See: YouTube- Choi Kwang Do - Wes Sargent 11 Alive


    * I have seen other claims that between 1978 and 1987 Choi taught himself in the fields of bio-mechanics, human anatomy, kinesiology and physiology in order to develop this scientifically based martial art. Those are some pretty lofty fields to have claimed to have mastered in a 10 year period. Proof would be required of this knowledge as well, as measured against professionals in those fields.

    This appears to have been entirely scripted from a press release given to the TV channel by CKDMAI. In it Marshall Pereira goes on to state that if Bruce Lee were alive he would seek out Choi "because of the way he kicks and punches", then makes another claim requiring proof:

    * "There are many Grand Masters all over the world, but there is no one who can punch and kick like Master Kwang Jo Choi." I will admit, from video footage I have seen, GM Choi is very fast with powerful strikes. However, proof is required that no other Grand Master in the world has punches or kicks as fast and powerful as Choi's.

    * In the same video clip it claims that Choi "redsigned the [TKD] kicks and punches to deliver maximum force on his targets, and no impact on himself." I have to admit, this one makes me giggle. :lol: I am truly interested in how he has managed to completely bypass the laws of physics here. Definitely going to need some proof on this one!

    * The voice over in the newscast goes on to say that "Choi Kwang Do has become the fastest growing martial art on the planet." Please show me the statistics. And the process by which they were derived. :icon_wink

    That should be enough items to try to verify for now. :icon_wink

    However, after reading this thread, Choi is not the only one with claims I would like to see proven. A lot of "hearsay" evidence has been thrown out in here without much in the way of substantiation. A number of posters (kwangjochoi, saman, jonnie11, etc.) have thrown out some serious allegations of wrongdoing (criminal fraud, assault, vandalism, libel, slander) with no proof being offered, and shrouded in a veil of anonymity. I do not intend to cast aspersions on any of your characters, nor on the personal experiences you have put forth. However, without presenting any verifiable evidence for what otherwise amounts to "hearsay" from a darkened room, it is, like some of Choi's assertions, just bullshido. I do understand that for some reasons you may prefer to remain anonymous. If that is the case perhaps you would be willing to contact me directly at edjcline@gmail.com ? I promise to keep anything you would like confidential.

    The only place I have seen claims backed up with documentary evidence is on Master Koo's web site.

    MadMonkey - on a couple of occasions you posted that you had received further information from some outside sources in your investigation, but so far none has been forthcoming. Any chance of getting some of that posted up here anytime soon? I understand being busy with work, family and personal life, but please don't shake a big juicy steak in our faces if you're not going to occasionally throw us a bone. :bbd:

    This affects some people that I care a great deal about, and don't want to see hurt. But, my best friend's wife is moving into becoming an instructor, and if possible I would like to be able to help protect them from the types of experiences I see related here. Any further verifiable information that you all can provide would be EXTREMELY helpful, and GRATEFULLY appreciated.

    Peace!
    Ed

    P.S. Does anyone know where I can get my hands on a copy of GM Choi's book without having to fork over a hundred bucks for it? I would like to see some of the claims he makes in his own treatise on his own style.

    Thanks!


    I have the book but I cant pm you my account says I cant yet
  9. saman is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    242

    Posted On:
    3/11/2010 9:30am


     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sheperd View Post
    On a slightly different tack, are you familiar with the name Erin Hansen? How about Michael Coleman or Gene Duncan? These are names associated with the dojang in Novi, MI that my friends attend. I have taken a good solid look at their web site, particularly the "About Us" section and all of what I would call "the propaganda" is there in full measure. I was particularly "impressed" with their comparison of CKD to "Traditional Martial Arts". Apparently, all the rest of us suck. Who knew?!?:flipando:

    I am familiar with Michael Coleman and Gene Duncan.
    Michael Coleman was a good instructor and his son Michael Coleman Jr. was probably one of the best. Both have left Choi years ago.

    Gene Duncan was a very good instructor along with his wife Nancy. Both have sadly passed away.

    Gene's brother Jeff Duncan is a very talented martial artist, instructor and businessman who left CKD years ago. He now runs a school in Michigan (Farmington Martial Arts) where he teaches a much improved version of CKD along with Jiu Jitsu and a combination of other arts.
    He told me he was totally disgusted with the way Choi treated his brothers family after Gene passed.
    Erin (her married name is Hansen) has been one of choi's golden children for a long time. She is good at performing ckd, but that does not make her a good martial artist. In an organisation that breeds arrogance in its instructors, she has always seemed to take the skill to a new level. My personal observations and experiences were never positive with her in terms of how she treated peers but groveled for choi and p. Yes, the other people you named long ago left ckd (Gene Duncan by death) the rest the way the rest of us left - because we were sick and tired of the crap.
  10. jonnie11 is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2010 2:09pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Answers in red below

    Quote Originally Posted by ecline View Post

    * Proof of the claim that Master Choi was "crippled", or even severely injured by practicing Tae Kwon Do. As far as amiller127's assertions that no one has proven Choi wasn't crippled by TKD, logic dictates that that is not proof that he was. You can't believe anything amiller says. He's arrogant and annoying and immature and hungry for power in the CKD organisation. If you were to meet him, that would be proof enough of this statement.

    * Claims that he "sought out top scientists in the fields of human anatomy, kinesiology and physiology," and that CKD is "scientifically based". Choi read some books and paid some 'scientists' for his first video to give an 'opinion'.


    * I have seen other claims that between 1978 and 1987 Choi taught himself in the fields of bio-mechanics, human anatomy, kinesiology and physiology in order to develop this scientifically based martial art. Those are some pretty lofty fields to have claimed to have mastered in a 10 year period. Proof would be required of this knowledge as well, as measured against professionals in those fields. He read some books

    This appears to have been entirely scripted from a press release given to the TV channel by CKDMAI. In it Marshall Pereira goes on to state that if Bruce Lee were alive he would seek out Choi "because of the way he kicks and punches", then makes another claim requiring proof: Pereira=propaganda

    * "There are many Grand Masters all over the world, but there is no one who can punch and kick like Master Kwang Jo Choi." I will admit, from video footage I have seen, GM Choi is very fast with powerful strikes. However, proof is required that no other Grand Master in the world has punches or kicks as fast and powerful as Choi's. He is very talented and quite good for an old man

    * In the same video clip it claims that Choi "redsigned the [TKD] kicks and punches to deliver maximum force on his targets, and no impact on himself." I have to admit, this one makes me giggle. :lol: I am truly interested in how he has managed to completely bypass the laws of physics here. Definitely going to need some proof on this one! CKD kicks and punches are different from TKD and for regular people with no interest in competition, quite good for self-defense.

    * The voice over in the newscast goes on to say that "Choi Kwang Do has become the fastest growing martial art on the planet." Please show me the statistics. And the process by which they were derived. :icon_wink CKD has lost many students and school owners over the last few years due to the fact that Kwang Choi is crazy, arrogant and greedy. The majority of the schools on the website locations page are in gyms or daycare centres and most 'professional' CKD school owners are struggling to make a living. Again, I can't prove that but this is fact to anyone who has been a CKD school owner and who has spoken with other school owners.

    That should be enough items to try to verify for now. :icon_wink

    However, after reading this thread, Choi is not the only one with claims I would like to see proven. A lot of "hearsay" evidence has been thrown out in here without much in the way of substantiation. A number of posters (kwangjochoi, saman, jonnie11, etc.) have thrown out some serious allegations of wrongdoing (criminal fraud, assault, vandalism, libel, slander) with no proof being offered, and shrouded in a veil of anonymity. Which one of my statements as it relates to kwang choi & ckd do you want verified? My identity would be proof enough of what I say is the truth. But, like you said, I wish to remain anonymous. This is not a court of law and I have that right.

    I do not intend to cast aspersions on any of your characters, nor on the personal experiences you have put forth. However, without presenting any verifiable evidence for what otherwise amounts to "hearsay" from a darkened room, it is, like some of Choi's assertions, just bullshido. You can't prove statements Kwang Choi makes in his office or incidents you were involved in whilst in CKD.

    I do understand that for some reasons you may prefer to remain anonymous. If that is the case perhaps you would be willing to contact me directly at edjcline@gmail.com ? I promise to keep anything you would like confidential. PM me if you think I am a liar and I may try to prove my statements but again I don't have to.

    The only place I have seen claims backed up with documentary evidence is on Master Koo's web site. That website is a joke. Koo needs to move on and get a life. It's been 20 years since he was involved in CKD and he is still angry. Why don't you analyze some of the statements about Koo self-defense on his website. I watched his video and his art is a bigger joke than any other art.


    This affects some people that I care a great deal about, and don't want to see hurt. But, my best friend's wife is moving into becoming an instructor, and if possible I would like to be able to help protect them from the types of experiences I see related here. Any further verifiable information that you all can provide would be EXTREMELY helpful, and GRATEFULLY appreciated. CKD is a good art to learn for non competitive people who want health and self-defense skills. Just tell whoever you know in CKD to stay away from school ownership.

    Peace!
    Ed

    P.S. Does anyone know where I can get my hands on a copy of GM Choi's book without having to fork over a hundred bucks for it? I would like to see some of the claims he makes in his own treatise on his own style. I would give you my copy but have since used the pages to light my fireplace

    Thanks!

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