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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2008 3:53am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If we werent talking about Martial arts though would the reaction be different.
    Nope not true.

    Let say you had people decide to open up a business in a franchise. They go in eyes open and are told the costs which they agree to. For each item they sell they have to give a percentage of the profit to the franchisee. After a while they still sell that product but then decide to stop paying the franchisee what they agreed to pay and rack up a big bill. Then when it hits a big fee they leave the franchisee and keep selling the same stuff under a different name and with a few modifications. Any other industry and those people would be taken to the cleaners for the money owed.
    This would apply to any business. It would be wrong.

    So, martial arts has nothing to do with it.
  2. amiller127 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2008 3:57am

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     Style: Choi Kwang-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Fine, you haven't really done that here. You admit you are being aggressive because, of things from other websites. Fine. Again, don't expect anything different when, you act like your (so called) attackers.

    I know you feel upset and persecuted. You came in here attacking people not, just their statements. Notice, what I quoted from your first two post. No matter what you do in other places, you came here on the attack.
    Actually I dont feel upset or persecuted. Ive refuted things that the others have said. Text doesnt communicate how im feeling when im responding. You can read it one way or another but im usually laughing and smiling when im typing my posts and saying that some accusations are crap.

    Ive not just based my answers on things ive heard from 3rd parties. I talk to Choi people and I talk to people who have left Choi. I have even talked to some of the people who are now anti Choi via email and phone. My main basis for my answers though is how ive personally been treated in CKD over the years. Ive been running a school for 9 years and my experience has been the complete opposite of what is said on a lot of the forums and web sites. Which gets me thinking why do these people experience things the way they do?

    Am I special. Does HQ just seem to like me more than other instructors because I must be if the accusations made here about how CKD treats its instructors is the norm and not the exception. I dont however think im any different in how im treated by HQ in comparison to other instructors. If you communicate with them when you have problems they (in my experience) work with you to resolve it. Thats why it seems to me like there is a side of the story that the anti CKD lot arent saying or dont realise....
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/30/2008 4:11am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by amiller127
    Actually I dont feel upset or persecuted. Ive refuted things that the others have said. Text doesnt communicate how im feeling when im responding. You can read it one way or another but im usually laughing and smiling when im typing my posts and saying that some accusations are crap.
    No, you really can't. If I say your arguments are crap and you are full of crap there is no wriggle room.



    Look we are going in circles at this point. You don't want to post any evidence besides your word that is fine?

    You need to understand, you want everyone to stop posting hearsay but, that is exactly what you are doing.

    You call people full of crap but don't like to be called brainwashed. It isn't about who started what.

    I took exception to your hypocrisy comment. That's it. So, I'm done with this circular argument.





    Oh, you are feeling persecuted when you start any post with "Is it Fair."
  4. amiller127 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2008 7:43am

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     Style: Choi Kwang-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by madmonkey
    Amiller127, glad to have someone who is a practicing instructor of Choi Kwang do on the forum. some of your points regarding comparison between CKD and other martial arts pricing systems is valid, both TKD and other systems can charge alot sometimes and you are right people can leave CKD it is a free country.

    There is also nothing wrong with an instructor making a living out of the martial arts, in this respect I agrre with what Ralph Allison was saying in this regard. However I feel 300 dollars plus for a dan grade is obscene, UNLESS that price includes a certain amount of training time towards the grade. DOES IT? JUST WHAT DO YOU GET FOR YOUR PAYMENT?
    You get your belt and certificate with that. When I did my 4th dan I got my testing done under the grandmaster and had a lot of feedback on my techniques, how I performed on drills, how to improve my defense drills, improve my teaching etc. It was worth every penny for me as far as I was concerned.

    I know the cert fees arent cheap but you dont have to pay them if you dont feel that its worth your money. Out of curiosity and to get a good idea of what other organisations charge do we know anyone who can say the costs for Dan testing under the ITF and WTF in the USA and UK? I vaguely remember the Grandmaster saying he hadnt raised the prices of the CKD Dan tests any higher than what was being charged by the ITF when CKD first came out and these were the first increases in dan tests that ive ever known in CKD.

    Also why the increase from to 18 grades. Ralph Allison told me this is how it was from the start of CKD but one look at the Wiki page for CKD dispproves that and says that it was introduced in 1999. I know of no other martial arts system that has 18 grades before black belt. It smacks very much of bujikan and their sudden change to 15 dans. This number seems to serve no teaching purpose that I can fathom, and before you ask not only have I been a martial arts instructor but I am also a qualified teacher. All this number of grades appears to do is prolong a students time at a club and increase the money recieved for the organisation. Fine to make money but not if it ripping people off.
    Ive made a long post on this in another forum and im damned if I cant find it....

    The CKD syllabus to 1st dan used to be

    White Belt
    Yellow Belt
    Orange Belt
    Green Belt
    Blue Belt
    Purple Belt
    Purple Belt Red Stripe
    Red Belt
    Red Belt Brown Stripe
    Brown belt
    Brown belt 1 black stripe
    Brown belt 2 black stripe
    Bo Dan - provisional BB
    Il Dan

    So 13 tests to BB.

    The syllabus was pretty sparse there to be honest. We used to have the following kicks.(apologies if I get this wrong but im working from memory and ive not seen this syllabus in over a decade.)

    Front Kick - Front and Rear
    Side Kick - Front and Rear
    Swing Kick - Front and Rear
    Reverse Swing Kick - Front and rear
    Spinning side kick.
    Spinning Reverse Swing Kick.

    Punches were

    Inward punch - front and rear
    Straight punch - front and rear (inward punch at a different angle basicly....)
    The 3 strikes.
    Round Punch
    Upward Punch
    Think we also had elbow and revers knife hand strike.

    I may have missed some techs but not many. All these were spread out in the BB syllabus.

    1st Dan + had more kicks and punches, heel kick, downward kick, crescent kick, knee strikes and twisting kick. Same with some of the hand techniques.

    Then the syllabus changed. The Black belt kicks and punches were brought down into the colour belt system. Junior and senior tags were added to the belts (some colours had similar approach anyways) and the gold belt was added. Bo Dan black belt was taken out completly (This was an expensive test, similar in price to a Dan test).

    So they added more to the syllabus, not just punches and kick, they also brought in speed drills and some other stuff. Some of the drills that were TKD based were gotten rid of like the 1 and 3 step sparring. So while its true that it did increase the belt ranks. More was taught earlier so that the syllabus was more challanging to get your black belt and you had a wider variety of techniques to use at this point.

    So the cost of getting to your Il dan wasnt much more than in the past, but you learned a lot more techniques and things and were challanged more getting the belt. Getting rid of the Bo Dan which cost about 4 to 5 times a normal testing (from what I vaguely remember) saw to it the cost of the test to Il dan didnt increase that much.

    So the going from 9 belts to 18 isnt quite true as you can see and the cost didnt skyrocket with it.

    My main issue with Chi Kwang Do as an art is the quality of it. Some of the black belts you turn out look awful in terms of technical stadards and abilities. Having trained with a few I was not impressed by the techniques which did NOT deliver a great deal of power and were not any better at protecting a persons joints. When you connect with a technique you are always going to recieve impact through the joints. If it can be scientifically proven thatr CKD delivers similar power to say a boxer/other martial art and still results in less impact being taken on the attackers joints then I will change my view but as I have already established this has not yet occured, though it has been claimed.
    Who have you trained with out of curiosity? Standards of black belts vary accross the board. It comes from the policy of looking at the individuals personal development rather than having them conform exactly to how GMC does things. The problem comes in when you have some people who push people in when their not ready or pass people who arent of a good enough standard. It happens in every organisation. If your ever in the Bristol region then you are always welcome to pop into my class and train and discuss all the points and pros and cons....

    As for the impact on the joints I think your a little confused as to what is being claimed. Whenever you impact with a shield etc you will get feedback from that and thats not too bad for you. When Grandmaster Choi was in TKD the way they practiced and demonstrate TKD they would punch with force into the air, locking the joints out. The punches and kicks were performed with power and it was the joints and the ligaments that were taking the brunt of the force in the lockout moves. Practice that way long enough with enough repetitions and your going to end up hurt. If that wasnt true then why would traditional arts change it so they dont lock the joints out. In CKD if your doing a technique in the air, you just go through the movement pattern without applying too much force. No point trying to hit the air as hard as you can. Then your refining the movement and technique so that when you have to apply it with force you can deliver the technique in the most efficient and effective way. On pads and shields, you hit them as hard as you can.

    Another issue that CAN (notice im not saying will - just CAN) cause joint issues is where your punching hard in the air without locking out, but pulling the arm or leg back in before locking out. Its the muscles joints and ligaments that then have to deal with decelerating the force of the punch or kick and can cause irritation and damage over time. With the CKD movemnts there are no lockouts or pull backs of the technique. Before the limb your using locks out you use a circular motion, not pull back to decelerate and control the technique, putting less stress on the joint and tendons etc.

    Does that make sense?

    When you impact the shield the force isnt concentrated on just one joint like the elbow or knee such as would happen if you performed a TKD punch or kick as they were taught and practiced in GMC's TKD days. The force from impact on a shield goes through the limb and is spread into the body.

    I have trained with a LOT of talanted CKD people. Im not a small person, im 6ft and of reasonable fitness and strenght but ive had many a person hit the focus mitts hard enough with one punch to really jar and hurt my shoulder. If applied correctly you can really get a lot of power from the CKD techniques.

    There is a study in the CKD book comparing CKD techniques to some TKD techniques. I dont think its completly in depth but as I remember it, the consensus was that the CKD equivelent of the TKD technique was around about 400% more powerful. Let me take a look at the book and see what it says again and will post some of it on here.


    Equally as an art that focuses exclusively on self defence, it is lacking in a number of crucial areas, eg sparring/groundwork/throws/close range grappling. Different clubs may practice some of these things but the official line from CKDHQ is that it is not to be done.
    Actually the focus has pretty much ALWAYS been on 3 things in Choi. Self Defence, Optimum Health and Personal Success.

    Wiki defines self defence as:

    Self-defence is the act of defending oneself, one's property or the well-being of another from physical harm.

    Is it not a Paradox that people believe strongly that the only way to learn to defend oneself is to put yourself in physical harm constantly?

    If what im being taught to defend myself is causing my physical harm, then is that not self defeating? Is there no other way of learning to defend myself without risking too much physical harm? Thats what CKD is trying to achieve. In 17 years of CKD the only injury ive recieved from doing the art itself is a few bruises, a sprained wrist from someone hitting a focus mitt very hard at the top point of the mitt and not the centre and a bloody nose when doing close range with a guy with incredibly long arms who caught me on the nose by accident (doesnt help I have a big nose either). Thats the sum of my injuries and I can guarentee you ive trained hard over the years especially in the run up to my black belt. What ive learned from CKD has worked for me in situations ive needed to use it and with more than one opponent and it has helped me protect friends too.

    You say "sparring/groundwork/throws/close range grappling. Different clubs may practice some of these things but the official line from CKDHQ is that it is not to be done. "

    Not quite true. We dont spar, but the drills we do when done properly can give you all the benefits of sparring in my opinion with less of the negatives. Ive gone to ex CKD schools and TKD classes that do semi contact sparring and what ive learned transfered nicely there too. Groundwork we dont have much of and its not in the syllabus I will give you that. I would certainly be happy to see escape from the ground brought into the syllabus, but not trying to go for locks and holds and submissions. On one of these threads people were knocking GMC for saying use a bite to get out of a arm bar. I have 2 observations. When I was a colour belt my instructor had me grab him in a head lock hard. He demonstrated an escape using a pinch to the back of my leg. I was grabbing as tight as I could onto him and trying to be as realistic as possible. The pinch had me surprised, my arms let go and my leg shot straight up in the air. So high i ended up on my ass. So biting and pinching can be usefull tools to loosen a grip if unexpected. I dont want to ever see locks such as armbars taught in CKD unless they are taught so that we can apply them properly and then show how to escape them and get back on our feet. I wont teach my students to put any locks on an opponent on the ground. If I was in an arm bar fighting outside you can pretty much guarentee I have friends around in that kind of situation. Try to get that lock on and you have a good chance that one of my friends will be involved and the least of your worries is that im biting you. Your problem is that your on the floor with your arms and legs tied up on me and a mate of mine is about to see just how far your head can come off your shoulders with a well timed boot.... That kind of thing is great for 1 on 1 fights in a cage with a referee. Not quite as suitable on the street unless you intend to break a persons arm and get up ASAP.

    As for takedowns and close range. They ARE part of the CKD syllabus and are even in the book. Whether you feel whats in there is effective or not is another matter, but they are there. I always teach my students that there is usually more than one way to escape close range and if I ever see one I dont know I add it to my repetoire and teach it to my students. I think, certainly in the UK, that the majority of us are like that.


    The attitude of "PILSUNG" is admirable but it is unlikely to be achieved by the CKD method which appears to instil an arrogance in some instructors and students which is not necessarily backed up by their ability.
    The attitude of Pil Suhng is simply to always do your best and never give up. To not accept defeat permanantly. Ive never seen anyone come across as arrogant due to that attitude.

    One thing that is a problem though is what I like to call Dan Fever. Some people get to a point in the syllabus or achieve a certain rank (instructor or dan etc) and something seems to switch in them. All of a sudden they cant be taught anymore. They know it all and their ego gets away with them. Ive seen it in Choi and ive seen it in other arts. The principles of CKD list humility first. Thats something we all should be striving to achieve but with human nature the way it is, with some people the ego gets the better of them. I can certainly say there have been occasions when I let my ego take ahold of me but I try to keep myself and my students grounded. I cant do more than that.

    Im pretty senior ranking in CKD. I honestly believe that im a good instructor and can perform most of the techniques and drills to a high standard and that im one of the top guys in the UK. I was VERY fortunate a year or so ago to be in Scotland when Master Jose Louis of Argentina came to do a week of training. After watching him train I felt pretty humbled. I felt that I had a lot of work I needed to do on myself and he inspired me to imporve. The guy is fantastic, down to earth, without a single IOTA of an ego and the best Choi practitioner in the world outside of GMC in my opinion. He sets the standard for what a Master SHOULD be in CKD and thats what im working towards achieving when I get my 5th dan around my waist.

    In terms of the organisation I strongly disagree with the blatantly false advertising. I have already shown that the art is has not been biomechanically tested in a true way(see earlier in the thread). The demonstration was infact one sided and based on observation. YET CKD STILL claims to be biomechanically superior to other martial arts and to be scientifically based.
    There is something in the book, although its not by any means extensive. Will try and take a look for it tonight. Ive seen some of the research that has been done by GMC into health and excercise and why he feels that CKD is so beneficial and there is a lot of work there.


    As to Master Choi and Marshall Periera, I have not met them personally and have only contacted them through email, yet when offered a chance to discuss the claims made by other websites and ex CKD instructors they ignored the opportunity.
    GMC doesnt use computers and is busy promoting the art. I dont think he cares about the accusations flung to be honest because he believes 100% in what hes saying and teaching. Master P wont give you the time of day if you said your "investigating" CKD for a forum. Thats his perogative. I know he will say he has much better things to do with his time.


    I have not so far been able to corroborate any of the claims made by Master Koo or other ex instructors but it is amazing how similar the claims are and also that the feeling of anger and betrayal of those ex instructors is so strong. Marshal Periera appears to be a slimy salesperrson of the worst order, I mean the quote about Bruce Lee was a blatant ploy insinuating a connection where none exists.
    Proof is hard to find im afraid. I for one think that with the whole issues with Koo leaving that both sides had a part to play in it and both made mistakes. Koo was used to being the top dog in the UK and getting his way. Same for GMC. I think what happened there was a clash of wills in the end. You get that with some people.

    Unfortunatly my experience of Koo is that he will leap on any truth, half truth or complete fabrication if he thinks it will damage CKD. Ive seen it myself with some of my guestbook messages to him. Nothing CKD does can ever win with him. Him and Master P also have an intense loathing for each other (yet from what I understand they still talk every now and then and take each other out to dinner :S - that I cant fathom). That wont stop for Koo while Master P and GMC are alive. As an example of how CKD cant win with him. A few years ago we had a guy called Dafyd Haase join us. He spun HQ a story of how the ITF people were against him, trying to slander him and his good name (quite a decent ploy to use as GMC had his own issues with the ITF I believe). GMC does his christian thing and offers the guy a chance and then we find out that the ITF people were calling him a cheat and scam artist. I remember calling HQ and voicing my opinion that I didnt like him being in CKD but was told by GMC that he had decided to give him a chance before the allegations came tolight so the guy was left in.

    Koo slated us for it saying we were harbouring a known criminal.

    A year or so later, we kick Haase out. Turns out the ITF guys werent lying. He joins one of Koo's good buddies organisation, Rod Cook. CKD gets slated by Koo using Haase as evidence that CKD is so bad that the instructors are leaving. While Koo is happy to slate Haase (and still will) he is still happy to try to use him being kicked out as a negative against CKD. He wanted us to kick him out, we did, we get that used against us?

    So nothing is 100% straight forward when it comes to Koo. I personally think he is a little unhinged.

    Master Choi may be very capable as a martial artist but his business practices and methods are remiscent of Mcdonalds. He claims to have been CRIPPLED but does not provide any evidence of any known condition or specific medical problems, just a vague entry about how Traditional moves destroyed his body. He then SELF STUDIES different sciences and HEALS himself with out any proof that he was ever crippled in the first place. This smacks of the kind of rhetoric used by con men in the old west when selling their miracle tonics that will cure all. WHERE IS THE PROOF that any of this happened?
    All I can offer on this is hearsay. I do know a CKD instructor who knew some senior TKD people and they apparently coobirated the story. Its not something they discuss though. If it wasnt true then wouldnt they be coming out of the woodwork now that CKD is starting to move into the heart of TKD - Korea? Also, if it wasnt true, Koo would have likely found out by now and would have it plastered on his web site.

    I am not saying that other martial artists haven't or don't use such tactics but surely if you want CKD to have REAL credibility as a martial art, then all this needs to be addressed and not with VAGUE statements about health and scientific superiority that are as true to CKD as to other martial arts.
    I think going forward the plan would be to have CKD studied in depth. They have a medical panel and I think GMC wants to get more study done.

    As for the claims being true to CKD as to other art for some of the health benefits, why would CKD promote other arts? You dont see Burger King saying how good their burgers are, but you know you will prob get the same benefits (or lack of) from Mc Donalds burgers. CKD is interested in promoting CKD. Ford dont say buy or cars, but you can get most of the same things with a Toyota do they?
  5. Dempsey1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2008 8:06am

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     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Did anyone else actually get through all of that post? I agree with this going in circles.
  6. Dempsey1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2008 9:02am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by amiller127
    When Master P first moved to HQ the school was no where near as big as it is now. He went out, learned business and promotion skills from the likes of NAPMA and MAIA and applied them.
    If he learned his business skills from NAPMA and MAIA, why not cut out the middle man and just join yourself?

    They are much cheaper than the fees associated with CKD, not to mention you cut out the politics.
  7. saman is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2008 9:06am


     Style: TKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by amiller127
    I LOVE how you focus on one point I make there and ignore the rest.

    Did you not read the bit where I said CKD is upfront when you join about the fees they charge. IF you dont agree with them you DONT HAVE TO JOIN. If the prices change while you are part of the organisation and your not happy with it, LEAVE.

    HQ takes 40% for colour belt testing as I seem to recall from a previous post and 60% of BB test fee. Not 60% +. But then if thats too much money, you dont have to stay in CKD. Fair enough, leave if your not happy. Its a free world. EVEN if your running a full time school you KNOW how much your expected to pay as part of CKD. So thats not an excuse. If you dont feel GMC should take 60% leave. As ive posted elsewhere, its cheaper than some other organisations im a member of so CKD is by no means the most expensive organisation in the world....

    I know thats a REALLY hard concept to grasp for you what with your head stuck up where it is.
    No, sheepman, YOUR hq takes 60% and school owners got 40% when it was first posted that it was a 50/50 deal. Then, with regard to bb testing, originally it was $200 for the student (1st degree) and instructors got $150 of that. Now it is the opposite. Nobody in TKD takes a cut of colour belt testing and I already discussed Kukkiwon fees. Also, technically, in Kinect there are no more senior belts, eliminating 1/2 the tests and testing fees for students.
  8. saman is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2008 9:14am


     Style: TKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JanusMagus
    My former-CKD, now Kinect, school mentioned a very, very high fee in the thousands to stay with HQ. Now, this is coming from two former police officers (founders of Kinect) and my instructor who is very friendly and open with us. They had no reason to make thiese fees up as an excuse to leave...in fact, I believe they felt it was an initial blow to their schools not to be associated as they were afraid of people leaving. Further, a woman at my school didn't seem surprised when she heard the news because, as she says, she had heard similiar stories online and contacted a few school owners by e-mail to confirm them. There were also fees associated with required seminars that cost a good amount of money for the instructor and extra for anyone additional (maybe you're too far away to be required to come).

    I know for a fact that, without all the belts and lower monthly rates (which, by the way, never needs a contract) that we've paying less than before.
    I didn't say what is in red. That was Mr. Miller. And yes, despite miller's refuting the $$$ grubbing of ckdmai, what you have heard from Kinect is true. The funny thing is that the first "Instructor Program" put on by marshall a few years ago wasn't even sanctioned by choi and, according to a friend who was in the room when all the poo hit the fan, he was not happy so marshall showed up with an envelope of CASH and made it all well. BUT, despite the payments made he didn't complete the training for any of them. Just a little more integrity, there. Funny how periera demands cash (no checks) for his part. Hmmm... wonder what the irs would say??
  9. JanusMagus is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2008 9:43am


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Amiller seems to group anyone who is former-CKD as someone who must have just left the organization after piling up debts and being unable to pay back HQ! First, couldn't HQ sue them for the money (I know Kinect has the money)? Second, again, it makes no sense for these people to have joined CKD with clear guidelines and then up and leave without any additional problems arising (but instead all have a bunch of complaints). Third, he has no proof of his accusations but is only trying to counter what others have heard first hand. Fourth, the Kinect founders and their close instructor have allegedly been targeted by a CKD-newsletter.
  10. amiller127 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/30/2008 9:46am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Choi Kwang-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by saman
    Funny how periera demands cash (no checks) for his part. Hmmm... wonder what the irs would say??
    Why dont you give them a call then. One way of seeing if he is being above board....
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