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  1. Eddie Hardon is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 10:26am


     Style: Trad Ju Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Minor interjection (and don't mean to be too provocative).

    At SENI, I witnessed some of the Gracie Invitational BJJ tourney and it seemed quite apparent to me that although there was an urgency to get the opponent to ground and hence apply the estimable BJJ philosophy, there was a lack of knowledge in Standing Techniques. For the Ultimate Purple category, one chap grasped lapels and then jumped up to wrap both legs around his opponent's waist and hoped that his falling Upper Body weight would drag the bloke to the floor so he could "get to work", as 'twere. He did this at least 3 times (having been stood up a couple of time by the ref).

    My initial thought was a counter by digging elbows to the inside of his opponents thighs (ouch) - Ok, you may have a different opinion and I'm not here to argue technique, it's just a passing observation. Rhetorical - how else to "close" with the opponent - or if you prefer, "Bridge the gap".

    In contrast the Judo chappie seemed very adept in controlling his BJJ opponent and won the match. I think the Judoka supplements his ground game by training with Roger Gracie at The Budokwai. If so he seemed very well rounded - and he wore a "GB" insignia on his Gi so I assume he's competed internationally.

    Conversely, I saw a BJJ event in Belgium last year in which a young women won her bout with a flying shin choke. Jesus, but that impressed me (and was so unexpected). It only worked once though, as a later opponent on whom she tried it saw it coming and countered. Which rather brings me back to the opening paragraph in which the bloke tried the same takedown 3 times - perhaps it was lack of ideas/standing technique?
  2. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 10:40am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon
    At SENI, I witnessed some of the Gracie Invitational BJJ tourney and it seemed quite apparent to me that although there was an urgency to get the opponent to ground and hence apply the estimable BJJ philosophy, there was a lack of knowledge in Standing Techniques.
    Yep, many BJJ players have shitty-to-nonexistent throws.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon
    For the Ultimate Purple category, one chap grasped lapels and then jumped up to wrap both legs around his opponent's waist and hoped that his falling Upper Body weight would drag the bloke to the floor so he could "get to work", as 'twere. He did this at least 3 times (having been stood up a couple of time by the ref).
    This we call 'pulling guard'. It's what you do when you doubt your ability to take your opponent down, or simply prefer to work from your back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon
    My initial thought was a counter by digging elbows to the inside of his opponents thighs (ouch) - Ok, you may have a different opinion and I'm not here to argue technique, it's just a passing observation..
    Doing this by itself won't work on any seasoned BJJ player.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon
    In contrast the Judo chappie seemed very adept in controlling his BJJ opponent and won the match. I think the Judoka supplements his ground game by training with Roger Gracie at The Budokwai. If so he seemed very well rounded - and he wore a "GB" insignia on his Gi so I assume he's competed internationally.
    You refer to the terrifying Bobby Rich. He's an international level Judo player, BJJ Purple under Roger Gracie and seemingly works out by clean-and-jerking cement trucks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon
    Which rather brings me back to the opening paragraph in which the bloke tried the same takedown 3 times - perhaps it was lack of ideas/standing technique?
    In this particular case it was probably the justified fear of playing throws with a hugely superior takedown artist. In the semi-final one guy didn't pull guard quite fast enough and got pretty brutally slammed.
  3. vinhthekid is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 2:30pm


     Style: BJJ/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    once again, some people just like to pull guard and play from guard.

    i'm a wrestler, it drives me nuts when people do that ****, but so what?! it's within the rules of BJJ and isn't cheap, so who cares?

    and i guarantee, as a blue, if i fought you, and i pulled guard and you decided to elbow my thighs, i'd proceed to sweep you, rape choke you and then break you arm.
  4. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 5:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: ^_^

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon
    Minor interjection (and don't mean to be too provocative).

    At SENI, I witnessed some of the Gracie Invitational BJJ tourney and it seemed quite apparent to me that although there was an urgency to get the opponent to ground and hence apply the estimable BJJ philosophy, there was a lack of knowledge in Standing Techniques.

    You do old style JJ. Your takedowns are already shitty.

    My initial thought was a counter by digging elbows to the inside of his opponents thighs (ouch) -
    You had this thought after not making it through the white belt eliminations, didn't you?


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  5. Shawarma is online now

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 7:00pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Flying Shin Choke?" Flying gogoplata?
  6. new2bjj is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 7:18pm


     Style: TKD, MT, KEMPO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I asked a BJJ Black Belt and MMA fighter (Alex Crispin) from Brazil why they don't work as many throws/judo. They feel (at least most guys at Ralph Graices school) that it gives up the back too much to focus on that. Now he was mainly talking MMA, so, take it for what it's worth.

    I was once rolling with a fellow white belt and did a shoulder throw from the a prone position and that kind of stunned the guy. Just my 2 cents.
    "Coffee is for Closers" GlenGarry Glenross
  7. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 7:48pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think BJJ is not as strong at takedowns as it should be. Theoretical explanations of why this is OK is a bad path for the art to take. They sound like some of the anti-grappling theoretical nonsense other arts came up with in the past.

    Since live competition is so important to the art, examining the rule set is probably a good place to start.
  8. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 7:59pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mike321
    I think BJJ is not as strong at takedowns as it should be. Theoretical explanations of why this is OK is a bad path for the art to take. They sound like some of the anti-grappling theoretical nonsense other arts came up with in the past.

    Since live competition is so important to the art, examining the rule set is probably a good place to start.
    Couldn't agree more. Let's face it -- adopting the art to the ruleset may be an inevitable consequence of competition, but it means that unless you want your art to be entirely esoteric, your ruleset has to reflect what you perceive as realistic. Otherwise, there's no justification for saying that MT or BJJ fighters are objectively "better" than, say, _unners , point-sparrers, or dance-off masters.

    MT fighters are better than point sparring champions because the ruleset is more realistic, in the sense of reflecting a "real" fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by new2bjj
    I asked a BJJ Black Belt and MMA fighter (Alex Crispin) from Brazil why they don't work as many throws/judo. They feel (at least most guys at Ralph Graices school) that it gives up the back too much to focus on that. Now he was mainly talking MMA, so, take it for what it's worth.
    That's very relevant -- if we want to discuss "general" effectiveness of BJJ, then the reasonable way to do so is to look at how things compare under more permissive rules (or no rules at all, like on the str33t). Since I'm largely ignorant of the actual data, can anyone expound on this? Do throws necessarily involve a higher risk of giving up the back, or is that crappy throws only? How do judo players really fare in MMA?
  9. HappyOldGuy is offline
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    Slipping coal into stockings with a little sumptin for mom.

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 8:12pm


     Style: Rehab Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pulling guard is not so bad. Yeah it annoys me, but it's arguably a legitimate aggresive move. Butt flopping at the start is when I get cranky.

    FWIW. Talking to most of my classmates about why standing (judo or wrestling) classes have 4-6 while BJJ classes have 30-40, the number one answer is that getting thrown hurts. I don't actually think it's that simple. I think alot of it is that it's easy to get discouraged learning to throw. It takes a long time to get your first throws off against a fully resistant opponent in randori. So you get something that hurts and that doesn't show easy results. Whereas BJJ hurts a little less, and I think you feel the progress (hitting your moves on people) much quicker.
  10. Deadmeat is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 8:27pm


     Style: Mixed Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HappyOldGuy
    Pulling guard is not so bad. Yeah it annoys me, but it's arguably a legitimate aggresive move. Butt flopping at the start is when I get cranky.

    FWIW. Talking to most of my classmates about why standing (judo or wrestling) classes have 4-6 while BJJ classes have 30-40, the number one answer is that getting thrown hurts. I don't actually think it's that simple. I think alot of it is that it's easy to get discouraged learning to throw. It takes a long time to get your first throws off against a fully resistant opponent in randori. So you get something that hurts and that doesn't show easy results. Whereas BJJ hurts a little less, and I think you feel the progress (hitting your moves on people) much quicker.
    Judo has to be one of the most frustrating and difficult things I've ever done.

    When I started training in MMA I was initially led to believe "practical" martial arts were ones that yielded quick results - i.e. that after a year of Muay Thai, I would be a better fighter than if I had spent that same year studying say _ing _un for example.

    However, grappling seems to be somewhat of an exception to this rule. In terms of submission grappling, it seems that you can improve to a certain level (i.e. be able to submit an untrained opponent of similar size/strength) within a fairly short period of time, but to progress significantly past that point takes a very long time.

    Judo is even more frustrating in that regard. You can play for years before even getting close to feeling like you're "getting it".
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