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  1. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2008 10:00am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    What's Included In TKD?

    Did "search function" on this. Nothing much. Google just turned up a lot of conflicting claims. So I thought I'd ask all the KMA experts here.

    I'm looking at a MA book I've had for three or so decades. It has things which resemble:

    Scissor-sweep takedown (p.245)

    Tomoe-nage (pp.236, 306)

    Kosotogari (p.225)

    Iriminage (p.234)

    Scoop (p.235)

    Single-leg takedown (p.263)

    Shihonage (p.279)

    Nikajo-osae (p.283)

    Kote-gaeshi (p.286)

    Figure-4 armbars (pp.290-293)

    Breakfalls and rolls (pp.294-300)

    Osoto-gari (p.302)

    Ogoshi (p.304)

    Seoinage (p.305)

    Butterfly guard (p.307)

    Closed guard (p.308)

    Some 101-level armbars from bottom (pp.309, 311-12)

    These are all in Richard Chun's 1976 book "Tae Kwon Do--The Korean Martial Art" (ISBN#0-06-010779-0). Some of you may have it. Now some of the resemblences are pretty close, such as the throws, breakfall and rolls. Others are, to put it very mildly, superficial, such as the 'guards' and the Aikido-looking stuff. The rest of the book is pretty consistent with TKD as it is assumed to be today, plus head-punches, hooks, uppercuts, and what-not.

    My question is this: are the techniques listed above considered part of TKD? TKD was reportedly assembled from a number of styles in the mid-twentieth century, and how much of the styles that made TKD up were Korean and how much was Japanese has been debated elsewhere. I recall, in the Dojang I attended in the 70s, doing a lot of what's in the book, which I have not seen in TKD clubs more recently.

    So are all these throws and other stuff part of TKD or just add-ons, better to be just called something like Hoshin-Sul? Just curious...
    Last edited by Vieux Normand; 5/12/2008 10:03am at .
  2. ThorirHrafn is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2008 5:09pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, I've been training for about 2 years in club here in Denmark that considers itself traditional. Most of the time we do the normal TKD stuff, lots of kicks and some punches, elbow strikes and the occasional knee strike. Most of the grappling stuff we do are joint locks and trying to get free if someone graps your arm, neck, clothes, etc. Once in a while we bring out some old mats and do basic breakfall techniques and some basic hip throws and leg sweeps.
  3. M.C. is offline
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    This is all I do: girls, photography and BJJ...

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2008 5:22pm

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     Style: KeyboardHero/CameraJutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't have the book, but lucky me I know allmost all techniques you mentioned (by name), maybe I know all, not that big on names, I just know techniques.
    I trained in 3 different clubs/dojos so far and two train them but only in Hosinsul. I don't know if they are "officially promoted" by the WTF, don't think so. On the other hand if you see some Hosinsul from Korea/the WTF it is mostly "Hapkido" and they have a lot of these techniques. So I guess it deppends on where you train, who is your trainer and which organisation you train under.
    Lets just assume they should still be part of TKD(Hosinsul)
  4. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/12/2008 7:50pm

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     Style: 血鷲

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It makes one wonder if TKD, as formulated or assembled in the mid-twentieth century, was perhaps a far more well-rounded martial art than it has since become.

    If so, one might theorize that, just as TKD was spreading, the 'money-moves' (cinematic-looking kicks which became big in the Bruce Lee to Chuck Norris era, but were never put to a UFC-style test) were marketed to get people's attention (and money). Other techniques, more efficient in actual self-defense but not as flashy (and without a mixed-combat venue to prove their worth) were neglected--to the point where some so-called instructors can't even name them, let alone do them. The fucking Olympic thing didn't help, either--except to fill some undeserving coffers.

    That being the case, calling what is taught in many crappy Dojangs today "Taekwondo" is about as accurate as teaching left-hook and triangle-choke--and nothing else--and calling that "MMA". Only a fraction of the whole is being taught...which strikes me as somewhat fraudulent, and it does TKD no favours. Add that to a general lack of real Kyokushin-style hard-conditioning, and it's no wonder TKD has not fared well among the more realistic modern combat sports.

    Perhaps--the damage having already been thoroughly done--the term "TKD" is best left to the hucksters. Meanwhile, those who do the old-school stuff (if that's what it is) might wish to call what they do Hoshinsul. If they do a lot of hard-conditioning as well as the techniques ("sul"), then "Hoshin" ("Self-Protection") might be the most accurate term.
    Last edited by Vieux Normand; 5/12/2008 7:52pm at .
  5. M.C. is offline
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    This is all I do: girls, photography and BJJ...

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 4:36am

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     Style: KeyboardHero/CameraJutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You have a point there, Olympics and making money are the two main evils in TKD, today and in the past. Most people/trainers emphasize on the kicking WTF/Olympic style, this is not necessarily a bad thing, if mixed up with the rest of TKD aspects.
    But the thing is, people don't want to learn how to fall on hard floor, they hate to go to the ground etc..
    And people get belts they don't deserve in order to keep them in the club, getting money out of belts and stuff.
    I hate it even in my club they do this and my club is among the “better” TKD schools, with solid Hosinsul, cross training, trainers who know more than one MA and all. Good thing is there are only a few idiots with egos around my club, thinking they are the **** if they get a belt, most of us take breaks between belts in order to get techniques nailed, be ready for the next level.
  6. ThorirHrafn is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 12:07pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I guess it all boils down to how people compete, as sparring is how you test your skills and get a feel for what you need to improve. As it stands the WTF rules only reward kicks to the mid section and flashy kicks to the head, so that is what one ends up training the most, practical or not.

    I think it could be interesting to see how TKD would evolve if for one people would acctually be able to practically get points for punching the armour and if you could get a point for sweeps and takedowns. Makes sense that someone how trains heavily in attacking with kicks should also know how to defend against them.
  7. DSL is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 1:54pm


     Style: MMA, BJJ, CMD, TKD, FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    VN I found it on Ebay for $20 (Amazon had 1 copy for 30) and ordered it.
    I'll take a look when it gets here. I'll also see about asking some Masters that go back that far where the techniques went, but I think the thread is on the right thought with those falling out due to WTFing and such. Also, if the tech's aren't in forms/poomsae's... they could get lost in generations.
    Anyway, I'll report back when I can.
    Thanks for the find.
  8. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 2:30pm

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     Style: 血鷲

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DSL
    VN I found it on Ebay for $20 (Amazon had 1 copy for 30) and ordered it.
    I'll take a look when it gets here. I'll also see about asking some Masters that go back that far where the techniques went, but I think the thread is on the right thought with those falling out due to WTFing and such. Also, if the tech's aren't in forms/poomsae's... they could get lost in generations.
    Anyway, I'll report back when I can.
    Thanks for the find.

    Don't mention it. I hope you find things in there that are worth what you paid; I certainly wasn't trying to get anyone to buy the book if they didn't already have it. I did, as mentioned, sort-of live off its contents when I returned to my hometown and found my old Sabomnim retired and the Dojang closed. It has lots of "Sul" (techniques, of course), but I found the conditioning to be less than combat-oriented...but that's just one idiot's opinion.

    From the perspective of the ongoing history of TKD--particularly as it shows some aspects of 'old-school TKD' as of the sixties and seventies--it's an interesting read.
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 2:48pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The term you're looking for is "gi", not "sul".

    The Chun book is amazing. I've often wondered why his students have lost the plot.
  10. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2008 3:02pm

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     Style: 血鷲

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Errant108
    The Chun book is amazing. I've often wondered why his students have lost the plot.
    Sorry to be about as 'on it' as a piece of wood there, Errant, but should I be reading thy 'amazing' remark with, or without, my sarcastometer switched on? Can't tell in this forum anymore *sob*.

    BTW, kansamnida for the Hangul tip. For some reason, I have "sul" listed as "technique". Will correct.
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