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  1. #1
    gimpface's Avatar
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    Stupid and purely academic question about chokes

    I was at a Phil Porter Judo seminar today (Yes, I know he has McDojo leanings, but he know his **** when it comes to Judo) and he was discussing chokes. He described how most properly executed chokes apply pressure to the carotid sinus which stimulates the vagus nerve to slow down the heart. As a paramedic I'm familiar with the physiology behind this, and something occurred to me- vagal manuevers will not work on people who have had a heart transplant, so theoretically it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to choke a transplant patient out. I realize that it's probably a moot point, since I'm not likely to run across a heart patient in the ring, but that being said, I'm sure someone somewhere has trained with someone who has had a transplant, and I'd like to know if this is true or not.

    Personally, I'd like to try it out on someone, but I'm pretty sure the quickest way to be kicked out of the CCU is to start randomly choking people, even if done in the name of science.
    Smoke crack and worship Satan.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by gimpface
    I'd like to try it out on someone, but I'm pretty sure the quickest way to be kicked out of the CCU is to start randomly choking people, even if done in the name of science.
    No. You should randomly choke out your patients. Dont forget to video it for our amusement.

  3. #3
    gimpface's Avatar
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    Yeah, I can see that in my report now:

    Pt c/o feeling suicidal and lonely. Checked for bruits and performed carotid sinus massage, rendering Pt unconscious. I then stole his wallet and spit in his face.
    Smoke crack and worship Satan.

  4. #4
    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer. Join us... or die

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    It's strangle technically, a choke attacks the trachea.

    And I always thought they worked by constricting the arteries, thus cutting off the blood flow to the brain that way. It may work the way he says... but I reckon he's overthinking this **** just a little.

  5. #5
    gimpface's Avatar
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    The physiology behind what he's saying checks out. Stimulating the carotid sinus essentially tricks the body into thinking it's BP is too high, so it signals the heart to beat slower and lowers the BP. Yes, just plain cutting off the blood circulation will also render someone unconscious, but it stands to reason that without the added effects of vagal stimulation this would be much more difficult.
    Smoke crack and worship Satan.

  6. #6
    Fasten your seat belts, and prepare for lift off
    DKJr's Avatar
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    Don't wait..YouTube - Admiral Ackbar's "It's a trap!" scene

    Yeah sounds fishy to me. I was told by a Doctor of Physical Sciences whos a BJJ purple belt that the best chokes cut off the carotid arteries and the jugular vein, which is why people go unconscious extremely like 3 seconds.
    Last edited by DKJr; 5/10/2008 11:19pm at .

  7. #7

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    A guy at Judo whose dad is a neurosurgeon says that what you're really doing is closing off the veins in your neck, not cutting off the arteries -- you have vetebral arteries. (I looked it up, and sure enough, we do have vetebral arteries).

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3moose1
    and that guy, at judo, is an idiot.

    You pass out because your brain isn't getting blood, delicious, nutritious, o2 rich blood.

    That wonderful blood travels through arteries. Veins have gross, irrelavent, deoxygenated blood.

    Then it goes to the heart, through the pulmonary circuit, and becomes yummy again.
    I don't know how the blood vessels are actually wired, but just because veins transport deoxygenated blood does not mean that blocking them off won't cause cerebral anoxia. Think about it: Oxygenated arterial blood goes to the brain, delivers payload...can't get back to the heart because the veins are choked off. That deoxygenated blood now sits in the veins and prevents, by pressure, fresh, oxygenated blood from reaching the brain. (Alternatively, more blood does enter, and eventually the head explodes in a pressurised fountain of blood.)

    Actually, given that people seem to go red in the face when choked, not pale, I'd say this is fairly credible: Blood is prevented from re-entering circulation, some extra blood is delivered to the head, but then there's no room for more.

    That said, I know virtually ****-all about anatomy; I just wanted to point out that your point (veinal blood is deoxygenated) doesn't actually contradict the notion that veins rather than arteries are choked off. If you're right, it's for other reasons.

  9. #9
    Slipping coal into stockings with a little sumptin for mom.
    HappyOldGuy's Avatar
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    Looks like it can be any or all of the above. It isn't necessary to totally cut off all blood flow, just enough.

    http://www.ebji.org/akeem/choke.html

    The state of unconsciousness, according to the investigators of the Society for Scientific Study in Judo, Kodokan, is caused by a temporary hypoxic condition of the cerebral cortex. In judo, the player holds the opponent's neck by his hands (forearm) or judogi, the bloodflow of the common carotid artery is obstructed, but the vertebral artery is not obstructed. It has been confirmed that complete obstruction of blood flow to the brain or asphyxia by complete closure of the trachea will result in irreversible damage to the body which often results in death. While unconsciousness (ochi) caused by choking (shime) in judo is a temporary reaction which incapacitates the opponent for a short while, its execution is quite harniless.
    Experiments with human subjects and animals show the following effects from "choking":
    1. Unconsciousness is due to lack of oxygen and by the metabolites created in the brain as a result of:
      • Acute cerebral anemia by pressure on:
        1. common carotid artery
        2. occipital artery
        3. jugular vein
      • Shock, reflex action initiated on the receptor organ in the carotid sinus.
    2. The appearance of flushing of the face because of the disturbances in pressure in the carotid arteries and jugular veins.
      • Decrease blood flow of the face shown by ultrasonic and laser-Doppler blood flow monitoring devices. The mean value is 89.4% with the lowest point in 6 seconds; after release return normal in 13.7 seconds.
      • Decrease oxygen saturation in blood in the helix of the ear by using an ear oximeter. Down from 95 to 86% and reach a minimum of 82% in 2-4 seconds. After regaining consciousness return to 90 to 92%. Sixty percent oxygen saturation in the brain causes unconsciousness.
    3. Tachycardia hypertension, and mydriasis (dilated pupils) are caused by stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system (vagus nerve). The systemic pressure rises 30-40 mm of Hg. After release the blood pressure returns to normal in 3-4 minutes.
    4. In some cases bradycardia and hypotension occur while other cases show tachycardia and hypertension depending on the hypersensitivity of the carotid sinus and where the pressure was applied.
    5. Cardiac volume decreases but the volume recovers in 10 seconds after awakening.
    6. The peripheral blood vessels are also involved: dilatation of muscle vessels and constriction of skin vessels. In shock, accompanied by unconsciousness, bradycardia and hypotension are observed with dilation of muscle vessels.
    7. Choking acts as a stressor on the circulatory and hypophysio-adrenocortical system:
      • Decreased blood volume and increased plasma proteins as a result of increased permeability of blood vessels. This is similar to unconscious state following electric shock.
      • No change in the hematocrit value or albumin/globulin.
      • A temporary increase in eosinophiles, then after awakening, there is a decrease in number after 4 hours.
      • The 17-ketosteroids in the urine: 2 hours after recovery, the amount is very much increased then gradually decreased (lasts 6-8 hours).
    8. The electroencephalogram (EEG): convulsions that appear in the unconscious stage are very similar to those of petit mal of epilepsy. No deleterious effects remained after the use of the choke hold. It is considerable less dangerous than a knockout in boxing.

  10. #10

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    Vagal stimulation?

    But what if your opponent's a man? :eusa_thin

    (Can't believe I'm the first one to make that stupid joke.)

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