Object Lessons: Striking vs Grappling

[wavy tiger]

Honestly, (and some people have already touched on this), I don't think it comes down so much to how, or what you do to someone, so much as WHO you're doing it to. Some people are just flat out incapable of understanding. NOTHING you do will teach them any differently. Unfortunately I think it comes down less to being a good judge of someone's fighting ability, and more a good judge of their character. Some people do require a little bit "harder" of a lesson, but if someone needs a complete beat down to learn, you're probably wasteing your time there anyway.

An example:

Years ago I trained at a Kung-Fu school with a Sanshou team. I was never on the team, but trained with them in the full contact classes regularly. On my first day (and coming from a Karate point sparring background) I was partnered with one of the better fighters because of my "extensive background" (yeah, I really did think my point sparring was going to hold up, but in my defense I was just a kid). He did a good job of going light and allowing me to feel comfortable with the contact, but he kept doing this thing where he punched at my chest and stop it well short of contact. After a few times he said "you're solar plexus area is WIDE OPEN". I failed to make the connection and after a few more warning shots he just went ahead and knocked the wind out of me. I nearly swallowed my mouth piece. I had an immediate light bulb "Holy ****! My Solar Plexus is wide open!" I needed that little tag to "get it", but I definately got it. No more Karate style delusions after that, but I'm one of those people capable of learning. Him just beating the **** out of me wouldn't have accomplished anything (although he was more than capable of it). On the other hand I saw a lot of new people come in, not make the connection no matter how bad they sucked and eventually end up just leaving after learning nothing. Some people are just not going to get it and you have to accept that and let them be delusional ass hats.
I just don't think there's any way around that. If someone isn't getting it from a few hard pops (as in my case), they probably aren't going to get it no matter what.

[Toj]

Barring your presenting a competetive fight record, I hereby declare that you suck.

Yeah, you suck. Because you've never sparred with anyone better than yourself?

You are suffering from the same kind of delusion that is the point of this thread?

Also, shut the **** up. Idiot.

I love you too, with lots of candy and sugar on top.

Actually, I knew when I wrote that statement it would get some flack, and I should have clarified....

Since leaving my first school, which I trained at constantly for 4 years, I have never had any problem in a sparring match. This includes visits to multiple different schools with varying styles, as well as many 'throwdowns' on different bases with a bunch of guys with varied backgrounds who just came together to fight.

Sure, when I first started training I got beat. One of the best experiences of my life came from training with a very experienced BB who would come and visit our school to fight our senior students. He was 6'3", in awesome shape, and a very great fighter who could use his kicks as well as his hands.

Fighting him was a humbling experience...I learned a lot of lessons about size, reach, range, weight, etc...But by the end of the 6 months, when he left to deploy, I had figured out how to get inside without getting beat down.

So in short, yes.... my comment was 'idiotic' the way I wrote it. It came off wrong.

[SifuJason]

-
Toj, a bit of a side-question:
-if a student actually gets a hit in that you werent "offering",but a genuine great (if rare) shot,is it grounds to start overhelming\"Punishing" him?

this isnt about the getting cocky thing,just about a guy that really is trying to improve and gets one in,even when you did your absolute best not to allow it.(if you cant guess,it happend at my WT school. the reason i know that said shot wasnt "offered" if because the instructor *never* let you hit him at all, also,he just kept slapping you around when he found a flaw...actually wailing on you was the "reward" on those guys who did get a hit in.)

It is 100% inappropriate to wail/punish the student for getting a great shot in, unless he deliberately ramped up speed and contact to do so, and thus hurt you. Rather, as an instructor, I am happy when my students get one in, and I let congradulate them for it. Beating on you for getting a shot in that instructor wasn't anticipating is a completely inapproriate response.

[Toj]

Toj, my original post was entirely about Throwdowns and style vs style matches. The conversation has drifted a little since then. I'd have to agree that this isn't really a problem when you are in a school with people you see regularly. When people can feel the difference between what happens when they are holding your pads vs what happens when you spar the differences are instantly apparent.

Right; I think my information holds true though. I've done the same type of fighitng I mentioned above in 'my own school', a new school with same style and different style, and my own version of a throwdown on different bases.

But you did make a point I tried to convey in my previous post... you mentioned feeling the difference between pad strikes vs strikes in a sparring match. This is referring to power.

Just because you got punching power doesn't mean you got the l33t $k!llz! (I am sure you got skills though from what people have said).

But if someone believes that even though they're getting tagged repeatedly in the face, ribs, etc, and it's "light contact", that they are really a good fighter since they didn't get hurt.... then they are seriously delusional.

I've never encountered anyone like that. Usually a smart tap on the nose, chin, or ribs, is enough to make them realize that they are overmatched.

[Roidie McDouchebag]

I'd say grappling is safer; I certainly have less serious injuries from it

I'd like to point out at this point that I have never torn my ACL, hyperextended my neck, or torn my shoulder, while striking.

[It is Fake]

Originally Posted by Escrimator
-
Toj, a bit of a side-question:
-if a student actually gets a hit in that you werent "offering",but a genuine great (if rare) shot,is it grounds to start overhelming\"Punishing" him?

this isnt about the getting cocky thing,just about a guy that really is trying to improve and gets one in,even when you did your absolute best not to allow it.(if you cant guess,it happend at my WT school. the reason i know that said shot wasnt "offered" if because the instructor *never* let you hit him at all, also,he just kept slapping you around when he found a flaw...actually wailing on you was the "reward" on those guys who did get a hit in.

See this what I mean by extremes. No, you don't wail on a student. If you are teaching that is the goal of the exercise.

[SifuJason]

I'd like to point out at this point that I have never torn my ACL, hyperextended my neck, or torn my shoulder, while striking.

Necks and shoulders definitely do get tweaked grappling, I am surprised by the ACL though; most ACL injuries I have seen have come from kicks gone wrong (either by getting kicked in the wrong spot, or slipping while kicking).

However, to compare, I've never been injured in grappling, but have had cracked ribs, broken toes, and busted lips, etc all from striking.

[MaverickZ]

See this what I mean by extremes. No, you don't wail on a student. If you are teaching that is the goal of the exercise.

Entirely correct, of course. But that isn't what WhiteShark was talking about.

I took it that far at my first throwdown. I may have broken one of Blankslate's ribs and dropped Ein on the ground with a liver shot. Then I kicked Te No Kage in the head and decided to settle down.

At the next Throwdown I wanted to be friendlier and not hurt as many people. For my courtesy I got a skinny asian kid who thought we was at my striking level on Monday. That is what happens when you don't drop people on their ass.

[It is Fake]

Entirely correct, of course. But that isn't what WhiteShark was talking about.

I know there are a couple of different conversations going on now.

Originally Posted by Escrimator
-
Toj, a bit of a side-question:
-if a student actually gets a hit in that you werent "offering",but a genuine great (if rare) shot,is it grounds to start overhelming\"Punishing" him?

this isnt about the getting cocky thing,just about a guy that really is trying to improve and gets one in,even when you did your absolute best not to allow it.(if you cant guess,it happend at my WT school. the reason i know that said shot wasnt "offered" if because the instructor *never* let you hit him at all, also,he just kept slapping you around when he found a flaw...actually wailing on you was the "reward" on those guys who did get a hit in.

I quoted the wrong post I will fix.

[Toj]

Some questions to WhiteShark:

At the next Throwdown I wanted to be friendlier and not hurt as many people. For my courtesy I got a skinny asian kid who thought we was at my striking level on Monday. That is what happens when you don't drop people on their ass.

What made this ‘skinny asian kid’ think he was at your level in striking?

What is that he dodged more of your blows?

Did he kick you more than you kicked him?

Did he punch you more than you punched him?

Did his strikes hit in more critical areas of the body (head, ribs, etc)?

Or, do you think it was just because you didn't knock him on his ass?

So again, what do you believe makes this kid think he is at your level?