Object Lessons: Striking vs Grappling
admin note: this thread spun off from You guys can keep badmouthing wing tsun il keep beating people - No BS Martial Arts
I'm sure no one wants to read a short post that isn't really about the chun but here goes anyway:
Striking will never reach the level of "purification" that grappling has because you can't gently apply striking to the point of "Oh now I see why I suck".
I took it that far at my first throwdown. I may have broken one of Blankslate's ribs and dropped Ein on the ground with a liver shot. Then I kicked Te No Kage in the head and decided to settle down.
At the next Throwdown I wanted to be friendlier and not hurt as many people. For my courtesy I got a skinny asian kid who thought we was at my striking level on Monday. That is what happens when you don't drop people on their ass.
When you do BJJ you can completely dominate someone and never hurt them. If they are a reasonable person they understand how badly they have been beaten. In Striking you just feel someone out and then settle at their level so as not to hurt them. that is pretty much the only way to have a "friendly" striking match. Unfortunately it is clear path to people making excuses and saying things like "My _____ worked fine because Whiteshark who is the moderator of Strikeistan didn't kick my ass."
I'm not some striking god but I am clearly above the level of all but about 3 people I've met at Throwdowns. No one but those 3 people probably know or believe that.
Last edited by Wolf; 5/06/2008 11:58am at .
I dunno, I felt like in our spar at the Mega you were both nice enough to stick around my level, and clearly outclassing me in every possible way. I've got enough experience to know when someone is holding back and to approximately what degree though, and I'm honest enough with myself to be able to admit it. I doubt most people have both of those characteristics.
Exactly. Great post. People tend to not understand what the above post entails.
Originally Posted by WhiteShark
I learned two very important things from a guy just like whiteshark. Don't turn your head and keep your hands up.
I learned like the earlier guys with the injuries and embarrassment. Good/proper contact teaches many things such as your lack of ability.
- Training in any sistem defines itīs aplication. A sistem, as an abstract notion, doesnt get your ass kicked...its aplication,if poor, will.
WC is a lot like Comunism: some good principles in itīs core but ends up with disastrous implementation when as an established sistem.
Whiteshark, i for one found the post interesting. :)
However,i have to disagree to a point. (again,i have to make the usual disclaimer that all presented facts are my own subjective,anecdotal opinion.)
- your partnerīs unwilliness to concede to some common sense or swallow his ego can happen in either case.
ive seen people who were went under chokeholds to the point of passing out because they felt they only had to "try a little while longer to escape."
-Conversely,i have also been on the receiving end of acomplished strikers who had no trouble on avoiding my strikes and giving them back at a more than generous ratio, *widouth* having to rearange my face for me to understand that i was being owned.
I will grant that you can commit more in grappling than you can in striking,wich is a good thing, but that only translate into a higher margin of comfort,not an absolute standard.
I also have training in Escrima,and if there is something weapon-based arts will teach you,is that if it hurts even while going easy,it will ***** you up badly* going harder. The margin for commitment\escalation within safely is again,even shorter than in striking.
Maybe thatīs where i picked up the common sense about when my striking is off.
you go as hard as you can afford to go safely given skill level and equipement,and as much as you need to go to get the point across, barring the fact that your opponent is incapable or unwilling to admit to the situation.
What if "as hard as you can afford to go safely" isn't enough to convince someone they are going down a dead end road of striking? In grappling you can make someone tap over and over and over. You can't really KO people then wake them up with smelling salts and KO them again in a "friendly" environment.
Originally Posted by Escrimator
I think you probably understand this in general but what you may be missing is that this is a far more PROFOUND difference between striking and grappling than it would at first seem.
-you could write volumes about what i do not understand about grappling. I am the first to admit that. I will have to get off my ass and find a suitable school to see how much of a difference there really is.
-My point is...you shouldnt have to KTFO of people for them to get it that their asses are being pummeled. Is this how your Instructor teaches you,or any of his students?
Or if you are an Instructor yourself,is this how you have to teach them?i should hope not.
-the confrontational situation of squaring off with a stranger at a gathering where you are worried about losing face and regular training regime are different contexts IMHO.
That's the problem though, if WingChunMaster shows up at a Throwdown to spar with Whiteshark, and Whiteshark tags him a couple of times lightly, maybe trips him. But doesn't just maul the **** out of him, then WingChunMaster things, "I'm almost as good as Whiteshark, who is considered totally badass." because he's already delusional about his skill level and doesn't have the experience with realistic contact to know when someone is holding back.
So in order to show the guy "Your **** doesn't work." Whiteshark would have to just wade into the guy and put him down hard 3-4 times to make the point.
It is, as has been explained, an inherent weakness in striking training: you can't get feedback on comparative effectiveness to the level of accuracy that such feedback can be gained from grappling training. Technical support (vids, striking-power-measuring pads, experienced outside observers) can help somewhat in that regard, but the immediate feedback just isn't there, and one has to do a lot more "how-hard?-what-if?" guessing as a result. And, of course, those you took it easy on in striking can claim effectiveness they don't have. This is especially risky for them if they have some kind of all-out encounter with somebody who does know how to fight..
I was pretty specific in my original post. My points are entirely about throwdowns and the various meet ups to "test" your game.
Originally Posted by Escrimator
Obviously KOing people regularly is not how anyone teaches striking.
You know we have that example right here on this forum right?
Originally Posted by Kintanon
He complained that lighter contact sucked so he couldn't show his superior skills while he was getting owned.
Now, he cries about not wanting black eyes and hating contact.