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  1. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/06/2008 2:45am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    A video on Sombrada

    YouTube - Sombrada Explained

    Blog post here http://www.hertao.com/blog/2008/05/sombrada-explained/



    "I’ve just added a new video on sombrada, along with pictures and a description of how to do the drill correctly. Sombrada, along with hubud and other pre-arranged patterns, trapping, etc., has been the subject of much controversy over the years. In 2000 I had a long argument on the old Inosanto forum, and another in 2002 on the old MMA.TV forum with Burton Richardson and Matt Thornton in which Marc Denny (Crafty Dog) also chimed in. Actually, most of the video I’ve posted above comes from a DVD I made to send Denny in 2002 after the MMA.TV discussion.

    Richardson and Thornton don’t see the value in sombrada type training. They both seem to disagree with the pre-arranged patterned drilling AND the techniques used in sombrada. Denny on the other hand, along with most of the Dog Brothers, uses drills like sombrada to ingrain good responses through repetition of patterns. Most people who disregard sombrada do so because they’ve seen it done and/or learned it incorrectly. If the techniques are done right, they work. And there’s nothing better than repetition to learn to use an effective technique…as long as it’s combined with realistic, uncooperative training, and as Denny would say, “the fighter’s understanding”."
  2. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 3:47pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    **** it, I'm bumping this ****. The best video on aliveness in FMA drills i've seen, and it can't get as much discussion as fucking finger locks?
  3. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 3:56pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry man, if I had any experience in stick fighting I'd love to chime in. Looks cool though. I also find the debate involving Denny and Thornton interesting.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  4. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 4:10pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alright, I'll contribute. Sombrada and similar drills have their place when done correctly. I see them as the stickfighter's equivalent to a boxer working focus mitts. In either of these cases (boxing or stickfighting drills), things can be executed in a static/incorrect manner, or in a dynamic/reactive manner.

    Standing there and going through motions will achieve nothing. Using the drills to improve your footwork, angling, leaning, checks, and counters can be useful. To be honest, with most of these types of drills, the pattern of the stick movement is the least important thing. Even the most basically trained arnisadors will have enough sense to put their stick in front of their face for defense. But angling in to intercept strikes before they hit their maximum velocity is tough. Using proper checks and avoiding secondary attacks is difficult.

    These are some of the aspects that you should really focus on when you are doing a drill of this type. Unfortunately these are also the aspects of the drill that are most commonly omitted. People stand in front of each other, and vaguely wave their arms around with no use of footwork, proper checking, hip and body torque, leaning or angling. And they don't even swing at each other's heads but rather some imaginary target that's 2 feet in front of their partner.

    Training in this latter manner does nothing but ingrain bad habits and give people an entirely false sense of security.
  5. escrimador6 is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 4:41pm


     Style: FMA / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I thought the video was great. I always enjoy doing the Sombrada drills, especially before sparring. It has always helps me get into the habit of flowing. Not just blocking, and reseting to strike or block, but flowing from strike to strike or from block to strike, etc.

    Like any drill, it can be done right or it can be done wrong. In my opinion it should be as close to sparring as any patterned drill can be. Strikes should have decent speed and power behind them, and be aimed at an actual target. Hips and feet should be moving. If you're just standing there, slowly and weakly swatting at each other, you might as well drop the sticks and play Patty-Cake, because that will be just about as useful in your training.
  6. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 5:05pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One thing that I don't like about these types of drills is the even rythm that they can sometimes lull you into. I forgot to mention that. You should always try to fight on off-beat rythm, and not with a consistent and predictable cadence. Sombrada and similar drills can sometimes cause problems in this regard if you're not conscious of the issue.
  7. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 5:14pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One of the more hardcore students in my pekiti group enforces this a lot. If he can start counting your movements in full beats he'll start hitting you on the half-beat during the drill.
  8. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 6:13pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, exactly. If you don't watch it, you start becoming a rhythm fighter, and stop being decisive. Rather than making a decision to make a move/jam/block/whatever, you just revert to the rhythmic pattern, whether it's a correct counter or not.

    I honestly think that they can be good drills to learn basic stuff, but at some point you need to throw a monkey wrench in the whole thing and see if the machine still runs. Rather than 1....2....3....4, try 1.2.........34. Force the players to be making decisions, and not just flowing all of the time. To much flow can sometimes be bad.

    To even further push things, have players break the pattern completely. Rather than roof block, then forehand, try roof block, same side retraction, then backhand. If you're having trouble detecting things like this, and keep flowing back to the pattern, then you need to take a break from sombrada/pattern training, and work on your detection of attacks. Any time you're so fixated on a pattern that it prevents you from seeing and reacting to what your opponent is doing, you have a problem.
  9. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 11:00pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think working batting cage drills for angle recognition along side the flow drills is essential to curriculum construction. You should be both flowing and learning to read the tells in isolation so you can work them.
  10. hungryjoe is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 11:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: judo hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    May I chime in?

    The focus on footwork and response/counter from defence are the pillars of pre-arranged patterns in any MA.

    Auto/reflexive - Repetition (and I hate kata of any form)


    Good video - thanks
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