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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2008 9:48am

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A_H is right; although it isn't widely known, there were fencing teachers during the mid and late 1800s who perpetuated fencing styles of a much earlier vintage, especially the rapier and various sidearms.

    There were also fencers (Castle and Hutton's clique in London, members of the French Academy, et al) who were actively experimenting with the reconstruction of historical styles at the turn of the 20th century. IMO Martinez's curriculum for earlier weapons is a rare survival of both of these traditions.
  2. Aristobulus is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2008 2:44pm


     Style: Historical Fencing,ARMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK So give me the traceable lineage of a living tradition? Martinez was taught by Rhodes, then Rhodes was taught by who? Then he was taught by who? then who?

    "There were also fencers (Castle and Hutton's clique in London, members of the French Academy, et al) who were actively experimenting with the reconstruction of historical styles at the turn of the 20th century."

    Castle and Hutton were not part of a living tradition. They were reconstructing historical styles that were lost not perpetuating living traditions.

    "Martinez did, however, study fencing under a master (Frederick Rohdes) who happened to be trained in Italian fencing, among other disciplines. "

    This is not in question. Are you implying that Rohdes was trained in Itailian Rapier in an unbroken line to the Renaissance? If so, then who was his master? Then his Master? Then his master?

    Where did all the unbroken lines go that you mentioned? They must be somewhere if they can be "positively identified".
  3. Angry_Historian is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2008 5:28pm


     Style: Western Fencing & FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristobulus
    OK So give me the traceable lineage of a living tradition? Martinez was taught by Rhodes, then Rhodes was taught by who? Then he was taught by who? then who?

    One of Frederick Rohdes's teachers was Luigi Barbasetti--one of the most famous Italian masters, who, in turn, had trained under the legendary Giuseppe Radaelli, as well as Masaniello Parise.



    "There were also fencers (Castle and Hutton's clique in London, members of the French Academy, et al) who were actively experimenting with the reconstruction of historical styles at the turn of the 20th century."

    Castle and Hutton were not part of a living tradition. They were reconstructing historical styles that were lost not perpetuating living traditions.

    Wrong.

    Castle and Hutton were most certainly perpetuators of living fencing traditions. Hutton was familiar with both native English broadsword/singlestick, as well as French and Italian fencing (among the various schools he trained at, was the famous school originally founded by Domenico Angelo, in the 1700s). Hutton's own composite saber fencing system (a combination of English and Italian methods) can be seen in his book Cold Steel--The Art of Fencing with the Saber (1889).



    "Martinez did, however, study fencing under a master (Frederick Rohdes) who happened to be trained in Italian fencing, among other disciplines. "

    This is not in question.

    Then what is your problem?



    Are you implying that Rohdes was trained in Itailian Rapier in an unbroken line to the Renaissance? If so, then who was his master? Then his Master? Then his master?

    Where did all the unbroken lines go that you mentioned? They must be somewhere if they can be "positively identified".

    For the umpteenth friggin' time, Martinez has never claimed a direct link to old Italian rapier fencing from the 16th or 17th centuries. However, he was trained in later Italian methods, which retained the rapier influence. Read my last post again, and you'll see how the rapier influence largely remained in the Italian style, even after the introduction of the French smallsword and modern duelling epee. All fencers & fencing historians--both old and new--are in agreement on this (eg., Cesar de Bazancourt, Egerton Castle, Alfred Hutton, William Gaugler, et al).


    It would thus seem that you have no basis whatsover, for your original claims about maestro Martinez and "bullshido". The quotes you took from the IMAF website and Martinez's website offer nothing to back your claims. Is this all you've got? If so, I suggest that you end the debate/discussion here and now.
  4. Aristobulus is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2008 6:22pm


     Style: Historical Fencing,ARMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "One of Frederick Rohdes's teachers was Luigi Barbasetti--one of the most famous Italian masters, who, in turn, had trained under the legendary Giuseppe Radaelli, as well as Masaniello Parise."

    And Radaelli and Parise are from what time period and they taught Rapier? And their teacher was?

    "Castle and Hutton were most certainly perpetuators of living fencing traditions. Hutton was familiar with both native English broadsword/singlestick, as well as French and Italian fencing (among the various schools he trained at, was the famous school originally founded by Domenico Angelo, in the 1700s). Hutton's own composite saber fencing system (a combination of English and Italian methods) can be seen in his book Cold Steel--The Art of Fencing with the Saber (1889). "

    This is not a link to a Renaissance rapier master who taught Castle and Hutton. So they were not perpetuating a living tradition of Rapier.

    I am not the only one who thinks that the sites claims are misleading. These 3 paragraghs alone are very misleading.

    "It is mostly focused on Historical and Classical fencing, that is to say, fencing of the 14th through the 19th centuries, based on surviving traditions and historical documentation."
    "The late historical period is the era in which fencing evolved into distinct schools specifically intended for civilian use. This development resulted in schools and styles that remained intact for long periods of time, and a direct line that may be drawn from the classical techniques to the systems already in use in this era. In short, this is the era in which a differentiation between military and civilian styles were clearly established, and national styles, such as the Spanish, Italian, and French schools, became clearly defined. Finally, the schools of thought regarding the subject, which may be documented through the printed materials left to us, can be discerned, and the origin of traditions that have come down to this very day may be positively identified.

    We know, for example, that rapier technique had its birth in the late 16th century, while the 17th century was the golden age of this weapon. The 17th century also saw the development of the smallsword, but it wasn't until the 18th century that we see the full development of l'escrime français, in which, primarily under the leadership of French masters, the smallsword developed into its own distinctive system. The Italian school also developed greatly during the 18th century, but continued to adhere to the method of the striscia, or thrusting rapier, as the basis of its system."

    I had 2 people who know nothing about fencing to read those paragraghs and then asked them 'does the rapier have a living tradition?' they both said yes. Why? Because that is what the site is claiming. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what the site is claiming.

    Where did all the unbroken lines go that the website mentions? They must be somewhere if they can be "positively identified".
  5. Angry_Historian is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2008 8:24pm


     Style: Western Fencing & FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristobulus
    "One of Frederick Rohdes's teachers was Luigi Barbasetti--one of the most famous Italian masters, who, in turn, had trained under the legendary Giuseppe Radaelli, as well as Masaniello Parise."

    And Radaelli and Parise are from what time period and they taught Rapier? And their teacher was?

    How many friggin' times do we have to go through this ****?!?!

    We've been through this already--Martinez isn't claiming a direct lineage of rapier fencing from the 16th or 17th centuries!



    "Castle and Hutton were most certainly perpetuators of living fencing traditions. Hutton was familiar with both native English broadsword/singlestick, as well as French and Italian fencing (among the various schools he trained at, was the famous school originally founded by Domenico Angelo, in the 1700s). Hutton's own composite saber fencing system (a combination of English and Italian methods) can be seen in his book Cold Steel--The Art of Fencing with the Saber (1889). "

    This is not a link to a Renaissance rapier master who taught Castle and Hutton. So they were not perpetuating a living tradition of Rapier.

    I was responding to what you ORIGINALLY wrote, which was:

    Castle and Hutton were not part of a living tradition. They were reconstructing historical styles that were lost not perpetuating living traditions.

    You made no reference to the rapier, when referring to Castle and Hutton--you simply claimed that they "were not part of a living tradition".

    But again, the rapier INFLUENCE is clearly in the modern Italian method of fencing, and that influence was even more manifest during the time of Castle of Hutton (19th century), when at least some Italian masters were still using a "long" sword that was clearly seen as different from the smallsword or duelling epee (see my reference to Bazancourt, earlier on this thread). Even to this day, the Italian foil and epee are clearly derived from the rapier! They have a functional crossbar & finger-rings. In his History of Fencing William Gaugler noted that Capo Ferro's Gran Simulacro (1610) established, "in an absolutely clear and concise manner, the principles underlying Italian fencing theory". He points out pertinent details of technique, like how Capo Ferro taught how cuts are made with a push or a pull (i.e., a drawing action)--this method is still taught today in classical Italian saber fencing.



    I am not the only one who thinks that the sites claims are misleading. These 3 paragraghs alone are very misleading.

    "It is mostly focused on Historical and Classical fencing, that is to say, fencing of the 14th through the 19th centuries, based on surviving traditions and historical documentation."
    "The late historical period is the era in which fencing evolved into distinct schools specifically intended for civilian use. This development resulted in schools and styles that remained intact for long periods of time, and a direct line that may be drawn from the classical techniques to the systems already in use in this era. In short, this is the era in which a differentiation between military and civilian styles were clearly established, and national styles, such as the Spanish, Italian, and French schools, became clearly defined. Finally, the schools of thought regarding the subject, which may be documented through the printed materials left to us, can be discerned, and the origin of traditions that have come down to this very day may be positively identified.

    We know, for example, that rapier technique had its birth in the late 16th century, while the 17th century was the golden age of this weapon. The 17th century also saw the development of the smallsword, but it wasn't until the 18th century that we see the full development of l'escrime français, in which, primarily under the leadership of French masters, the smallsword developed into its own distinctive system. The Italian school also developed greatly during the 18th century, but continued to adhere to the method of the striscia, or thrusting rapier, as the basis of its system."

    I had 2 people who know nothing about fencing to read those paragraghs and then asked them 'does the rapier have a living tradition?' they both said yes. Why? Because that is what the site is claiming. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what the site is claiming.

    LMFAO!

    You had "2 people who know nothing about fencing" state that, and that should tell you something.



    Where did all the unbroken lines go that the website mentions? They must be somewhere if they can be "positively identified".

    You must be really fucking dense, bro.

    I don't see ANYWHERE in the passage above, that says anything about an "unbroken line" of rapier fencing! The passage mentions "a direct line that may be drawn from the classical techniques to the systems already in use in this era", and one can most certainly see that in the development of the Italian school! Look at the example I gave above, regarding the method of delivering cuts, with both the rapier and duelling saber! Did you even bother to read the piece by William Gaugler, that I posted the link to?


    So stop trying to make this something that it is not, Aristobulus! You either have evidence of Martinez making the claim, or you don't. Do you have anything? So far, you haven't posted **** to back up your assertion. If you really think the IMAF passage is "misleading", then all I have to say is...:englishmo


    Peace,

    A_H
  6. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2008 8:53pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristobulus

    "There were also fencers (Castle and Hutton's clique in London, members of the French Academy, et al) who were actively experimenting with the reconstruction of historical styles at the turn of the 20th century."

    Castle and Hutton were not part of a living tradition. They were reconstructing historical styles that were lost not perpetuating living traditions.
    Hutton and Castle most certainly were part of a living tradition regarding quite a variety of fencing styles, including what Hutton referred to as the "great stick", military sabre fencing, etc., but I understand that you're specifically referring to their experiments with reviving historical styles, which was why I said:

    ... there were fencing teachers during the mid and late 1800s who perpetuated fencing styles of a much earlier vintage, especially the rapier and various sidearms.

    There were also fencers (Castle and Hutton's clique in London, members of the French Academy, et al) who were actively experimenting with the reconstruction of historical styles at the turn of the 20th century. IMO Martinez's curriculum for earlier weapons is a rare survival of both of these traditions.
    Note, "both of these traditions", as in, both the active reconstruction of earlier weapon styles (a la the Hutton/Castle cabal in London and the French Academy in Paris) and also the mid-late Victorian era fencing masters who perpetuated rapier fencing, not as reconstructionists, but rather out of what seems to have been simple conservatism and perhaps respect for their own teachers' curricula. These teachers are best documented in French and Italian sources. I'm currently involved in a project to locate and translate these references, but it's early days, yet.
  7. Dirty Rooster is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2008 12:00pm


     Style: Basic Self-Defence

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey I was enjoying that.
    There hasn't been any post for a day!
    C'mon youz angry sticklers, let's talk about whacking peaople with metal things, never mind some paragraphs about lineage and tradition.
  8. Aristobulus is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2008 6:46pm


     Style: Historical Fencing,ARMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Note, "both of these traditions", as in, both the active reconstruction of earlier weapon styles (a la the Hutton/Castle cabal in London and the French Academy in Paris) and also the mid-late Victorian era fencing masters who perpetuated rapier fencing, not as reconstructionists, but rather out of what seems to have been simple conservatism and perhaps respect for their own teachers' curricula. These teachers are best documented in French and Italian sources. I'm currently involved in a project to locate and translate these references, but it's early days, yet."

    Cool. If you can find a Renaissance master of rapier and positively identify a link through the years from master to student to the present day then I will be the first to let everyone know. Sadly, I don't think you will find it. Good luck Bro.

    "Castle and Hutton were not part of a living tradition. They were reconstructing historical styles that were lost not perpetuating living traditions."

    This statement was meant toward rapier. They were not perpetuating a Renaissance rapier living tradition. They were perpetuating a Classical Fencing living tradition. That can be positively Identified. The Renaissance Rapier cannot. If it can it has not been yet.

    Later
  9. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/27/2008 9:38pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristobulus

    Cool. If you can find a Renaissance master of rapier and positively identify a link through the years from master to student to the present day then I will be the first to let everyone know. Sadly, I don't think you will find it. Good luck Bro.

    Later
    In strict terms, teacher/student lineage is outside the brief of the project; we're specifically attempting to locate, translate and collate references to rapier fencing as current practice (rather than as historical revivalism) during the 1800s, towards a larger project. I can't offer specific details at this stage but in general, there is much more positive evidence of rapier fencing during the 19th century than most HES researchers might expect; it's just not widely available in English.
  10. Lozenge123 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/03/2008 12:48pm

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     Style: Historical Fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Colonel Biddle's sword and dagger

    I checked out the Biddle book online and "Angry Historian" is correct. Page 5 reads:

    "Grateful recognition is accorded to all who have contributed to his knowledge or collaborated in the preparation of this work. Special mention must be made of some whose contributions are of outstanding value. The writer has been trained by able sword and bayonet instructors of the British Army...and in sword and dagger in several Portuguese, Spanish and French Colonies."

    It seems to me highly unlikely that these several sword and dagger instructors, hailing from different (non-British) colonies, would all be coming from the "Hutton-Castle" lineage. I also think it highly unlikely that a US Marine Colonel and noted pioneer of military combat would be training and applying made-up and/or crackpot technique. If he saw fit to mention this sword and dagger training in his preface, and in the above context, then he must have deemed it effective.

    Here is a link to a free online version of the Biddle book:

    http://hsfreebook.blogspot.com/2008/...-j-biddle.html

    This would seem to indicate that traditions of sword and dagger did in fact survive into the 20th century.

    What's more, if you look at his section on knife fighting (pages 52-66), you will see illustrations of techniques such as Stocatta, Inquartata, and Passata Soto--all hallmark rapier moves which can still be found in classical Italian fencing systems.
    Last edited by Lozenge123; 6/03/2008 2:47pm at .
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