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  1. Aristobulus is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/29/2008 10:39pm


     Style: Historical Fencing,ARMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Since there is no Valhalla, we can always meet and spar if you are ever near Montgomery, Alabama. That is the good thing about Martial Arts, all dissagrements can be settled by doing what we love, fighting. LOL

    Later

    Ray

    P.S. You never did mention who you study with. I just hope it isn't with Sellohar, Hugh Knight(AKA Fatmeister) or the Martinez bunch. They are Bullshido. If that is who you train with, I truly do feel sorry for you. LOL
  2. kg6cig is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2008 10:21pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristobulus
    Since there is no Valhalla, we can always meet and spar if you are ever near Montgomery, Alabama. That is the good thing about Martial Arts, all dissagrements can be settled by doing what we love, fighting. LOL

    Later

    Ray

    P.S. You never did mention who you study with. I just hope it isn't with Sellohar, Hugh Knight(AKA Fatmeister) or the Martinez bunch. They are Bullshido. If that is who you train with, I truly do feel sorry for you. LOL
    I do in fact train with Hugh. Time alone will tell if he's Bullshido or not, for me. After nearly 30 years in other martial arts, I suspect that in time I'll be able to test that theory myself. At least as far as the basics go, he's been able to back up his theories.

    Selohaar... I know nothing about how well they fight. I do know they're into a mystical aspect that doesn't interest me. I have no idea if that plays into their other fechtschules or not. But, they're a long way off, so it's a moot point.

    Martinez has nothing to do with my interests. I'm not sure why you mention them... are they doing KdF now?

    Regards,

    Joseph
  3. Aristobulus is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2008 3:20am


     Style: Historical Fencing,ARMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "I suspect that in time I'll be able to test that theory myself. At least as far as the basics go, he's been able to back up his theories. "

    A good sparring session with speed and intent should say alot. Have you not sparred with him yet? Do you train with him directly?

    When I say sparring with speed and intent, I mean almost full speed with blunts(not slo-mo), almost full speed with wasters, and full speed with pads and Nylon. If you dont know what Nylon wasters are you need to find out. They react like steel but are safer than wood. They have all the right weight and balance of a sword as well. Very nice tool and just as inexpensive as wood and last longer.
    Alot of videos of sparring I have seen by some groups(not all) are so slow and with out any real intent that it is pathetic. Or they train with a Shinai which has no discernable edge and is waayy to light.
    Oh and of course train with no restictive rules e.g.= no grappling, seizing, or no striking certain parts of the body,etc. etc... Implementing rules is bad for any Martial Art.

    Yes I am doing Kunst des fechtens. I personally have copies of Doebringer, Ringecks longsword section, Talhoffer, Auerswald, and Codex Wallerstein. What text are you studying?
  4. kg6cig is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2008 10:49pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A good sparring session with speed and intent should say alot. Have you not sparred with him yet? Do you train with him directly?

    No, and yes. Bear in mind that while I've been studying- as in scholarly research- WMA for several years, my actual training is fairly recent- within the past 9 months. Prior to that my exposure was SCA combat which, while fun, isn't period fencing. So I have not sparred with him yet, because frankly, I don't know enough about this system from a practical application standpoint to make it worthwhile. Plus, I don't have armor (SCA, yes- not for this), and we only do freeplay in amor.

    I do train with Hugh directly. It's the only way to train. And that is why I respect his opinion- because he's demonstrated techniques effectively in those areas that I know something about. Yes, I'm something aof a novice at longsword, pollaxe, and spear. I am, however, not a novice at wrestling and grappling, nor at knife fighting. So while Hugh (or anyone else) might be able to baffle me with bullshido in longsword... good luck with that on knife fighting and wrestling. Have you trained with him? Or did someone just tell you he doesn't know what he's doing? Because I have to tell you- as Hugh himself has said in class- "Hey, that fat sumbitch knows somethin'." Note he usually says this after he's sorta casually dumped me on my a$$.

    When I say sparring with speed and intent, I mean almost full speed with blunts(not slo-mo), almost full speed with wasters, and full speed with pads and Nylon. If you dont know what Nylon wasters are you need to find out. They react like steel but are safer than wood. They have all the right weight and balance of a sword as well. Very nice tool and just as inexpensive as wood and last longer.

    The only ones I've seen are about a pound lighter than their actual steel counterparts. We thought about ways to add some weight but haven't gotten around to experimenting. I have a waster, and my Fechterspiel is on order. Should be here in a couple of weeks.

    Oh and of course train with no restictive rules e.g.= no grappling, seizing, or no striking certain parts of the body,etc. etc... Implementing rules is bad for any Martial Art.

    So, eye gouges and throat strikes would be okay, then? Full kidney blows? Biting? Knee and elbow strikes at full strength? It seems to me that we should just dispense with the nylon wasters and use live steel, then.

    Rules are there to protect your practice partner and you. If I were to fight at a WMA event with the full arsenal of every dirty trick I know, I guarantee someone would get mad at me. And they'd be right- it's not safe. Even MMA fights have rules. Yes, they're a lot less than they were in the past of ISKA-style kickboxing. But they're still _there_.

    Yes, I know that some systems put rules in place to hide their failings. But rules are not inherently bad. I was recently watching the "TOP Army Fighter" competition- basically Army MMA- and they had rules in place because these guys had to go to work the next day. In Iraq. The Army could not risk these guys getting hurt and being unable to deploy. I'm not going to Iraq- but I still have to go to work tomorrow. And my work occasionally requires me to rassle with highly psychotic people, so I kinda need to be not injured. If you hurt me to the point I can't work, I'm not going to train with you anymore. I'm guessing you and your training partners have to go to work too- and so I'm sure there are safety rules in place.

    The only way to fight for real is to fight for real. No rules. You want to see if you're real- go play with the Dog Brothers or someone like them. Otherwise, you're kidding yourself about "no restrictions." But, "no restrictions" means you're going to get hurt, potentially badly. I've been in enough fights to know I don't want to do that anymore. It hurts more and hurts longer every year. So I accept the limitations of my training, and if I ever get into a real swordfight, I'll find out if my Fechtmeister was right.

    I personally have copies of Doebringer, Ringecks longsword section, Talhoffer, Auerswald, and Codex Wallerstein. What text are you studying?

    The same, except for Auerswald, plus von Danzig (the translations, anyway), and Paulus Kal. I have both Lindholm's and Tobler's translations of Ringeck's longsword, and Lindholm's of the rest of Ringeck- I'm trying to get Tobler's but it's on back order. I'd like to get more of the originals- but since I don't read modern German, much less medieval, there's not a lot of point. Well, some of the illustrations are kinda helpful.

    Regards,

    Joseph
  5. Aristobulus is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/04/2008 2:33am


     Style: Historical Fencing,ARMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "we only do freeplay in armor."

    No Blosfechten. Why not? Most Fechtbucher cover Blosfechtens.

    "Have you trained with him? Or did someone just tell you he doesn't know what he's doing?"

    No. I have seen his interpretations of Codex Wallerstein on his website. they were not even the techniques in the book. It didn't fit the illustration or the translation. I have also read several of his post on forums where he said that Zornhau was useless. I have heard this same thing from other SCA guys. I then procede to show in sparring at speed why it is so effective. It is the fastest and strongest strike possible. Hugh also affirmed that if you do use it, it should only be used to gain a bind. This idea is rather common though. LOL
    I would love to fight with him. I'm sure he would refuse as he has repeatedly refused to spar a fellow ARMA member. To be honest, I asked if you had sparred with him to see if he even spars with his students.

    "The only ones I've seen are about a pound lighter than their actual steel counterparts."

    Try New Stirling Arms for wooden wasters. Their wasters are weighted and balanced. http://www.newstirlingarms.com
    For nylon with proper weight and balance try With Intent Wasters. http://freewebs.com/wiwasters/
    I have wasters from them personally. Both very, very good. For steel blunts and live steel go with Albion. http://www.albionarmorers.com Check out there Meyer and Lichtenaeur blunts.

    "So, eye gouges and throat strikes would be okay, then? Full kidney blows? Biting? Knee and elbow strikes at full strength? It seems to me that we should just dispense with the nylon wasters and use live steel, then."

    Yes,yes,yes,yes, and ok. This is Martial Arts isn't. "If you scare easily do not learn any art of fighting" Doebringer, 1389 A.D.

    "Rules are there to protect your practice partner and you."

    No. Control is there to protect your partner and other safety gear.

    "If you hurt me to the point I can't work, I'm not going to train with you anymore. I'm guessing you and your training partners have to go to work too- and so I'm sure there are safety rules in place."

    Hurting your training partner should be your goal, injuring him should not. There is safety equipment not rules. I don't see why this idea is so hard to comprehend. Alot of people cannot see that this his how they trained in the old days. Why not today. We even have protective gear to keep cuts down, keep are teeth and eyes. Some people get it(Dog Brothers, ARMA, etc....)

    "The only way to fight for real is to fight for real. No rules. You want to see if you're real- go play with the Dog Brothers or someone like them. Otherwise, you're kidding yourself about "no restrictions." But, "no restrictions" means you're going to get hurt, potentially badly. I've been in enough fights to know I don't want to do that anymore. It hurts more and hurts longer every year. So I accept the limitations of my training, and if I ever get into a real swordfight, I'll find out if my Fechtmeister was right."

    "Training should reflect actual combat. If it doesn't, the training is at fault" Matt Larson,NCOIC of Army Combatives School.
    What is wrong with Dog Brothers? Why train with them when I have ARMA? Major injuries are always potential. Even playing Soccer(Worse in Soccer). Dog Brothers has a very low percentage of Major injuries. ARMA has no Major injuries that I know of. Look up statistics of injury rates. You might be surprised to find out that the harder training groups have a lower frequency of Major injuries, but they have a higher frequency of Minor ones.
    We are talking about Martial Arts right. This is very real. "If you scare easily do not learn any art of fighting" Doebringer, 1389 A.D.

    "I have both Lindholm's and Tobler's translations of Ringeck's longsword, and Lindholm's of the rest of Ringeck- I'm trying to get Tobler's but it's on back order. I'd like to get more of the originals- but since I don't read modern German, much less medieval, there's not a lot of point. Well, some of the illustrations are kinda helpful."

    Just try and find good translations. Read the translation and try to work it out first. If you can't figure it out, then read the interpretaion and the modern illustrations. Then work through those with speed and intent and question them until you can continually perform the technique with speed and intent in sparring. Weed out the techniques until you find the one that works.

    Later,

    Ray
  6. kg6cig is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/06/2008 1:34am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No Blosfechten. Why not? Most Fechtbucher cover Blosfechtens.

    I didn't say we didn't do Blossfechten. Only that we don't do freeplay Blossfechten.

    I have also read several of his post on forums where he said that Zornhau was useless. I have heard this same thing from other SCA guys. I then procede to show in sparring at speed why it is so effective. It is the fastest and strongest strike possible. Hugh also affirmed that if you do use it, it should only be used to gain a bind.

    Interestingly, that's not at all what he says in class. Our first two longsword classes were about almost nothing _but_ Zornhau. And what happens when you bind in a Zornhau. Additionally, he has said nothing about only using it to gain a bind, only that you should be prepared to do so, as it is a common strike. So, I strike a Zornhau, you do nothing, you die. You strike a Zornhau at the same time- if you are soft in the bind, I Zornort, you die. Hard in the bind, pushing my blade high, I Zucken, you die. Hard in the bind, pushing my blade low, Durchwechseln, again you die. Hard in the bind, on line, Winden and thrust- again you die. It's a decision tree- one you need to know if you're going to use Zornhau. Obviously, I'm oversimplifying, because you can do stuff to my stuff, but that's what I've heard Hugh say on the subject. His book says the same, so it's not like he came out with the idea yesterday.

    Try New Stirling Arms for wooden wasters...<snip>

    Their site says the longswords are two pounds. The With Intent wasters, essentially the same. Too light. I use purpleheart- they have a nice weight, and the balance isn't bad. I agree, albion makes good stuff- we use Arms and Armor's Fechterspiel sword; it's an authentic recreation of the training blades actually used.

    Hurting your training partner should be your goal, injuring him should not. There is safety equipment not rules. I don't see why this idea is so hard to comprehend. Alot of people cannot see that this his how they trained in the old days. Why not today. We even have protective gear to keep cuts down, keep are teeth and eyes. Some people get it(Dog Brothers, ARMA, etc....)

    It's not hard to comprehend. It's just not true. Schools in Thailaind, the Phillipines, wherever, yes, they train hard, but there are still safety rules. About 15 years ago I was training in Muay Thai. We went at it pretty hard- but we were careful on the knee and elbow strikes because you could injure your training partner easily. That's a safety rule. As far as the debate between "hurt" and "injury"- I made the distinction pretty clear in saying "to the point I can't go to work."

    What is wrong with Dog Brothers? Why train with them when I have ARMA? Major injuries are always potential. Even playing Soccer(Worse in Soccer). Dog Brothers has a very low percentage of Major injuries. ARMA has no Major injuries that I know of. Look up statistics of injury rates. You might be surprised to find out that the harder training groups have a lower frequency of Major injuries, but they have a higher frequency of Minor ones.
    We are talking about Martial Arts right. This is very real. "If you scare easily do not learn any art of fighting" Doebringer, 1389 A.D.


    Nothing is wrong with the Dog Brothers- I have the utmost respect for those guys. Yes, injuries are possible. For what it's worth, this ain't exactly my first dance. I'm pretty familiar with a variety of training methods, from one end of the spectrum to the other. I frankly think that there's not a lot of point in continuing the conversation, because you're in one place as a martial artist, I'm in another. And we're not going to agree. Not to mention having lost the whole point of the thread. So, as Sam Clements once said, "never try teaching a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." I'm not sure who's the pig and who the teacher, but the end result is the same.

    Thanks for your input- even if I don't agree with you on a lot of it. You are loyal to your school, and that's commendable. Good luck in your training.

    Regards,

    Joseph
  7. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/06/2008 2:23am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin
    Plus, ARMA endorsed the Riddle of Steel role playing game!

    Riddle of Steel was kinda ass. The Combat system was neat, but so deadly you can't spend any significant portion of the game doing combat. And it's not good at doing anything else. Spiritual attributes are neat, but you can just port that to any dice-pool system you want.
  8. Angry_Historian is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2008 10:20pm


     Style: Western Fencing & FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristobulus

    P.S. You never did mention who you study with. I just hope it isn't with Sellohar, Hugh Knight(AKA Fatmeister) or the Martinez bunch. They are Bullshido. If that is who you train with, I truly do feel sorry for you. LOL

    Maestro Ramon Martinez, from NYC?


    How on earth do you consider his group "bullshido"?
  9. Aristobulus is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 3:43am


     Style: Historical Fencing,ARMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is he bullshido in Classical Fencing? No I don't do Classical Fencing and this thread is not about it.

    Is he bullshido in Historical Fencing? He did spread false claims of lineage in Historical Fencing. That is bullshido.
  10. Angry_Historian is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2008 8:51am


     Style: Western Fencing & FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristobulus
    Is he bullshido in Classical Fencing? No I don't do Classical Fencing and this thread is not about it.

    Is he bullshido in Historical Fencing? He did spread false claims of lineage in Historical Fencing. That is bullshido.


    What "false claims of lineage in Historical Fencing" did Martinez "spread"?
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