Starnes Hating, Fighter Bashing

**Teh El Macho** · Posted On: 4/29/2008 7:03pm

*** putting my arm-chair thinking cap ***
One thing about Quarry is that he certainly failed to cut Starnes off the ring... err, octagon. You just don't keep running linearly after him.

**Domite** · Posted On: 4/30/2008 1:31am

Originally Posted by Teh El Macho

Why should we? It is not our competency for fighting that it's into question. After all, I'm an spectator, a PPV-payer. It is his mental/emotional competency as a professional fighter that is into question. No doubt that he could kick my ass, but that shouldn't be impressive, nor negate the fact he didn't fight when he was supposed to.

Whatever flak he's getting, that was his doing, not ours. He was under contract, to do a particular job, which is to fight. If he indeed was injured and couldn't get his range, he should have thrown in the towel. Period.

There is no dishonor on that, and no one would want to see a fighter go on with an injury that's stopping him from doing so.

Maybe he indeed didn't want to throw the towel and instead tried his best to get his range (and failed to do so due to his alleged injury) up to the very end of the third. If that indeed was the case, then you have to question his judgement. He's losing, he can't do crap, he's constantly running... and he has a broken foot. Better judgement would have lead him to throw the towel.

Now, understand this: everyone fucks up. No one is perfect. But guess what? When you **** up, you get flak. It is up to Starnes now to find a way to do his thing and do a good job as a fighter. But until he redeems himself as a professional fighter, he's going to be under the microscope.

"lets see you motherfuckers fight Kaleb" my ass dude, really.

It's not the fact that people have critisims that I think is so asinine, I mean I was making fun of the guy while I was watching the fight too. But the way alot of people are really shitting on the guy is pretty irritating to me, seeing as how very few of them would look any better. Saying **** like "Oh, if I was a pro MMA fighter for the UFC..." c'mon.

**Ke?poFist** · Posted On: 4/30/2008 1:34am

Originally Posted by Domite

It's not the fact that people have critisims that I think is so asinine, I mean I was making fun of the guy while I was watching the fight too. But the way alot of people are really shitting on the guy is pretty irritating to me, seeing as how very few of them would look any better. Saying **** like "Oh, if I was a pro MMA fighter for the UFC..." c'mon.

Bingo

**Lily** · Posted On: 4/30/2008 4:01am

Originally Posted by PirateJon

I would...

...if I could catch him.

I'd say this is what would be considered '****-talking'. PirateJon, aren't you like seriously overweight and have problems with your spine? I doubt you could catch Kalib.

Just saying.

**Dagon Akujin** · Posted On: 4/30/2008 8:17am

Originally Posted by Domite

Saying **** like "Oh, if I was a pro MMA fighter for the UFC..."

.... I'd do my job. Saying that he gets a break because he fights (as a profession) is bullshit. Imagine if we used that excuse for everything else.

"You don't know what it's like being a cop, so don't say that cop should have stopped that felony from happening right in front of him! He could have gotten hurt!"

"You don't know what it's like being an ambulance driver, so don't say those paramedics should have helped the people in the accident! They might have just gotten off work!"

"You don't know what it's like being a teacher, so don't say that teacher should have actually taught something to those kids! It might've been hard!"

"You don't know what it's like working a cash register, so don't say that checkout attendant should have actually scanned groceries! There might have been lots of groceries!"

If you are a professional police officer, a teacher, or a fucking checkout attendant, you are supposed to do your job. It's not any different for a professional fighter.

Dagon :seppuku:

**Ke?poFist** · Posted On: 4/30/2008 9:21am

Originally Posted by Dagon Akujin

"You don't know what it's like being a cop, so don't say that cop should have stopped that felony from happening right in front of him! He could have gotten hurt!"

Sean Bell case. Reason? "You don't know what it's like to be a cop"

"You don't know what it's like being an ambulance driver, so don't say those paramedics should have helped the people in the accident! They might have just gotten off work!"

Recent cap on litigation payouts for medical malpractice suits. Reason? "You don't know what it's like to be a doctor"

"You don't know what it's like being a teacher, so don't say that teacher should have actually taught something to those kids! It might've been hard!"

John Scopes got off paying just $100 fine for teaching blasphemy. Reason? "You don't know what it's like to be a teacher"

"You don't know what it's like working a cash register, so don't say that checkout attendant should have actually scanned groceries! There might have been lots of groceries!"

I used to work as a cashier at a supermarket.....no one holds them accountable for anything. You just shove things into the bag to make people go away :)

If you are a professional police officer, a teacher, or a fucking checkout attendant, you are supposed to do your job. It's not any different for a professional fighter.

Dagon :seppuku:

Serious Reply Time

This last sentiment here, has been basically echoed by every other person in this thread. But you said it the most directly, so I'm going to reply to you.

The criticism is that Kalib is paid to fight, and he didn't go in there and "fight." What the **** is that supposed to even mean? I've seen fighters from nobody to champ get criticized for "not fighting" or "fighting to not lose, not fighting to win" or any other variation of criticism.

End of day, the guy, like every other fighter that night, got in the cage and for all intents and purposes he did his job. There is no standard of how passionately you have to fight, or how gritty you must behave, to ignore an injury and press forward irregardless of your predicament. Sure we'd all love to see a battle that displays technical skill, heart and resiliency. But not every fight is gonna be that.

Should Kalib have thrown in the towel? Perhaps. But also perhaps he thought that he still had a shot to get an opening to capitalize on and turn the fight around. Is it a rule that if you don't throw the towel in when you're feeling beaten, that you now have to charge forward recklessly, in some Hollywood inspired last ditch effort of valor? Have we all watched Rocky THAT many times?

But at the end of the day, I guess you're all right because Dana White agrees and cut him from the roster. I don't necessarily disagree with his position, but as I stated in the OP, I'm more disgusted at the **** talking and armchair quarterbacking.

**Snake Plissken** · Posted On: 4/30/2008 11:11am

Originally Posted by Ke?poFist

Serious Reply Time

The criticism is that Kalib is paid to fight, and he didn't go in there and "fight." What the **** is that supposed to even mean? I've seen fighters from nobody to champ get criticized for "not fighting" or "fighting to not lose, not fighting to win" or any other variation of criticism.

End of day, the guy, like every other fighter that night, got in the cage and for all intents and purposes he did his job. There is no standard of how passionately you have to fight, or how gritty you must behave, to ignore an injury and press forward irregardless of your predicament. Sure we'd all love to see a battle that displays technical skill, heart and resiliency. But not every fight is gonna be that.

He is paid to enter the ring/cage. What he does when in there is strictly up to him based on the best expectations of how he was trained for the fight.
So either:

1) His coaches picked a stupid game plan
2) He chose to ignore his coaches for all three rounds.

This sort of tactic, "getting on your bicycle" is accepted in Western Boxing where there are more rounds and a boxer can take a few rounds off to catch a rest. With only three rounds, MMA fighters aren't afforded that liberty and I doubt ATT set this gameplan up.

At this juncture I would more question ATT for chosing to keep training and coaching him KNOWING that he ignored their gameplan then Dana White for keeping him in the UFC.

Unless of course, that was their gameplan.

Should Kalib have thrown in the towel? Perhaps. But also perhaps he thought that he still had a shot to get an opening to capitalize on and turn the fight around. Is it a rule that if you don't throw the towel in when you're feeling beaten, that you now have to charge forward recklessly, in some Hollywood inspired last ditch effort of valor? Have we all watched Rocky THAT many times?

HE couldn't throw in the towel, but his corner could have.
HE could have quit on the stool between rounds.

Not many fighters and not many corners are willing to do that.

He and his corner actually did the smart thing....up until his "******" and challanging someone after the fight......he rid it out on the hopes that he would either eek out a win or draw or not lose too badly. His actions didn't speak of someone searching for an opening, it seemed more about survival and avoiding a KO and the potential physical damage that would create.

That way, after the decision, he could make his injury statement and hope people would buy it. Odds are, if he quit or the towel was thrown in after his first round performance....he would definately get cut. He probably presumed he would be viewed as "gutty" for continuing the match, injured, as opposed to quiting.

Electing to get KOed, while more "manly" isn't the smartest thing for a fighter. He was thinking about the next fight, not the current one.

But at the end of the day, I guess you're all right because Dana White agrees and cut him from the roster. I don't necessarily disagree with his position, but as I stated in the OP, I'm more disgusted at the **** talking and armchair quarterbacking.

Don't take more stock in the comments then are really there. People love to "gotcha" and second guess..
Have you ever questioned the judges decision? I have.
I am still pissed, 20 yrs. later over the judges decision of the first Greg Haugen/ Vinnie Pazienza fight.

As for questioning fighters. It's just nature. Everyone questions atheletes. If anything take the criticisms on this board a little less harshly then a fat man wearing a Patriots jeresey questioning Tom Brady.

Because at least the people on this board train.

**Kentucky Fried Chokin** · Posted On: 4/30/2008 2:09pm

Originally Posted by Ke?poFist

**** you. **** every one of you who knocks on fighters. I don't know where people seem to get off making fun of guys who are agreeing to put their asses on the line in a cage fight.

Especially when most of those same people barely even train, and if they do, it's a once or twice a week BJJ white belt affair, where they spend the first half of class trying to remember how to pass guard, then sitting on the side of the mat when they are supposed to be rolling, talking about "OMG DID U SEE KALIB RUN AWAY? LOLZ" when they should be getting in the mix and actually training, so that they can perhaps one day be worth the ball sweat in even an amateur fighter's groin cup. The same people who then laugh at "crappy TMA" schools because they train at >insert Gracie< BJJ Academy, when probably a teenage point fighting TKDer who wrestled in Jr. High could take them in a real fight.

Yeah what happened last night was funny, but there's a difference between chuckling at Nate's antics, and **** talking a fighter, saying BS like how he should be kicked out of the UFC just because he got gun-shy and began backpedaling. This isn't the first time I've seen the coddled masses of armchair experts and Partial Artist hobbyists come clamoring to take a collective piss on a fighter. It's fucking pathetic and embarrassing to call yourself a fan of the sport. Go watch baseball or something, where it's accepted etiquette to ****-talk the players from the stands.

Did I mention to go **** yourselves?

This thread is too long to read, so I'm sorry if this view has already been stated. **** Starnes he should be kicked out for not doing his job. There are lots of us who shelled out our hard earned money to order that UFC event (thank god I wasn't one of them) only to see **** like that. If the fight was free I would complain, but it was Pay Per View. The UFC has a resposability to the consumer to deliver a quality product and even though they can't control the outcome of a fight, they should do everything in their power to ensure that that product is the best it can be.

So while I agree that yeah, fighting is hard, criticizing is easy blah, blah, blah, I think the UFC shouldn't tolerate that and neither should fans. If went to work and didn't do anything all day, I would be fired too (ol, maybe I wouldn't, but someone with a real job would). But think of it like this: if you paid big bucks for a private BJJ lesson and all the instrutor did was show you DVDs wouldn't you be pissed?

Edit: After reading a bit more of thread it seems this viewpoint has been stated.

**Dagon Akujin** · Posted On: 4/30/2008 2:56pm

Originally Posted by Ke?poFist

he did his job. There is no standard of how passionately you have to fight,

The jokey part was really bad :P Anyway, this part I disagree with. I don't think he did his job. But you and I may simply have different definitions. So that this doesn't come off as semantics, I'd like to say that in the UFC, a fighter's job is to:

1: entertain the crowd.
2: come off like a bad-ass (entertain the crowd).
3: make fights people want to see (entertain the crowd).
4. showcase their incredible skill (entertain the non-retarded-rednecks).

Kalib failed at those, which is why he shouldn't be in the UFC. I would not, at all, even close, ever, say that about the amatuer guys getting in the ring up here in Michigan. I wouldn't say that about someone at some smoker who is really just getting over the nerves. Stepping into the cage is a HUGE accomplishment for most people, but it's not something we need to be impressed by after shelling out $50 for a night of PPV.

Dagon

**Snake Plissken** · Posted On: 4/30/2008 3:09pm

Originally Posted by Dagon Akujin

The jokey part was really bad :P Anyway, this part I disagree with. I don't think he did his job. But you and I may simply have different definitions. So that this doesn't come off as semantics, I'd like to say that in the UFC, a fighter's job is to:

1: entertain the crowd.
2: come off like a bad-ass (entertain the crowd).
3: make fights people want to see (entertain the crowd).
4. showcase their incredible skill (entertain the non-retarded-rednecks).

Kalib failed at those, which is why he shouldn't be in the UFC. I would not, at all, even close, ever, say that about the amatuer guys getting in the ring up here in Michigan. I wouldn't say that about someone at some smoker who is really just getting over the nerves. Stepping into the cage is a HUGE accomplishment for most people, but it's not something we need to be impressed by after shelling out $50 for a night of PPV.

Dagon

This brings forth the dilemma known as Lyoto Machida.

Personally, I like the guy and find his counter-puncher style entertaining but there have been posters who complain and say the guy is "boring".

What do we do with someone who fights. Matches up. Enters the cage. WINS.....yet doesn't accomplish 1-3 of your list?