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  1. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2008 1:21pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Does Hatsumi know his ninja ryu lineages are fake?

    OK I may be wrong, but the general consensus seems to be that the lineages of the Bujinkan ninja schools are not proven to be any older than Takamatsu. The ones I refer to are Togakure Ryu as well as Gyokushin Ryu and Kumogakure Ryu.

    There have even been some people who doubt that Takamatsu's teacher Toda ever existed.

    My question is whether Hatsumi himself knows or suspects that the schools were made up by Takamatsu?

    The standard Bujinkan line has been that Hatsumi trusted Takamatsu and is just passing on what he learned from him. In essence, shifting the buck from Hatsumi to Takamatsu.

    But I really have to wonder whether Hatsumi really believes this, or whether deep down he knows that the lineages are made up.

    Even if he himself did not make up the styles, is it wrong for him to keep promoting the 34 generations claim?
  2. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/16/2008 2:12pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by krazy kaju
    Takamatsu has never been proven to exist.
    No dunb ass Toda has never been proven to exist.
    There is not only tons of photos of Takamatsu training with Hatsumi Sensei and other but we also thve 18 min of video of him training. taken from an old 8mm.
  3. Asriel is offline
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    I'd like to leave this world like I came into it: Screaming, naked & covered in someone else's blood

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2008 2:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai (BJJ hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Masaaki Hatsumi (初見良昭 Hatsumi Masaaki, born December 2, 1931) is the founder and current head of the Bujinkan Dojo martial arts organization. He is currently residing and teaching in the city of Noda, Chiba in Japan.[1]. He is also a practitioner of mending bones.
    " The reason elite level MMAists don't fight with aikido is the same reason elite level swimmers don't swim with their lips." - Virus

    " I shocked him with my skills on the ice becuase Wing Chun is great for hockey fighting." - 'Sifu' Milt Wallace

    "Besides, as you might already know (from Virus, for example) - there's only 1 wing chun and it sucks big time" - Tonuzaba

    "Even when I'm promising mayhem and butt-chicanery, I'm generally posting with a smile on my face." - Sochin101

    "That said, if he blocked my hip on a drop nage, I would extend my leg into a drop tai Otoshi and slam him so hard his parents would die." - MTripp

  4. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/16/2008 2:24pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mending bones? Who the hell goes to Hatsumi for "mending bones"?
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  5. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/16/2008 2:25pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Asriel
    Masaaki He is also a practitioner of mending bones.
    He was a Sekkotsui which is a traditional Japanese "bone doctor". They basically specialize in setting broken bones, sprains, and low level injuries like that.
    He is retired. retired at 65
    From what I hear he used to have a pretty succussful practice. because of all their injuries many judoka become (Or became not sure if they still do) Sekkotsui . Nagato Sensei is also one
  6. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/16/2008 2:28pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, when I was in Micronesia, I saw a traditional method of treating sprains that involved vigorous massage of the sprain. This is opposite to the basic "rest, ice, elevation" paradigm I learned in my first aid classes, but I also saw that the aggressive massage seemed to return functionality to the sprained joint very quickly, probably because it prevented swelling through the aggressive massage. So while I wouldn't go to Hatsumi if I had an actual broken bone maybe his old fashioned manual therapy has something to it.
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  7. pharmakos is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2008 2:36pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First he has to care one way or the other. If you had an endless source of money and adoration how deeply would you inquire into its cause?

    You could pose the question another way; is he cynical or is he stupid? I used to do bujinkan and when I started to realize it was bullshit I was curious about whether my own instructor whole heartedly believed in it or whether it was just an easy way to rustle up some money (possibly i was bitter). He always liked to play it enigmatic and mysterious so it was very difficult to tell. He was, to be fair to him quite clever, not education smart he had savvy, so it wasn't inconceivable that the thought "does this mean anything or really work at all" had occurred to him. I reckon he chose to never pursue it and that our belief in him confirmed his own genius to himself. If he was purely cynical he would not have put so much effort into what it is that he did, its not like some effort didn't go in. I also think if he was really cynical there would have been an honesty about what he was doing that he wouldn't really have been able to hide. When I told him that I thought his art was bullshit I could tell it wasn't faux rage on his part. I think, for him, it was a rational decision to believe in something he knew might be irrational.

    It was also like he had several sets of beliefs about what we did, one week it was Ninjutsu and it was important that we all be in uniform with the right belt etc, the next week rank, what you call what we do and uniforms are bullshit its all about movement, next week lets train traditional movements, next week if we are going to do weapons we have to spar with them to get a sense of how to use them, next week lets practice this set of traditional kata of six foot stick versus bokken and so on. The different pictures never added up to any one cohesive picture. They were rarely even related to one another. It was like when he saw the flaw in one he would switch to another and that would now be the proper bujinkan. Any self criticism on his part (which usually morphed into a criticism of us) or criticism of the art could be accepted if we switched to a different picture of what the art was. I suspect this kind of mental leapfrog goes on a lot with the higher grades.

    I think that hatsumi engages in this kind of self manipulation. He isn't stupid, he just goal post shifts a lot and likes it when people take him seriously which might mean acting mysterious, or like he is some kind of badass, or like he is playful, or he is formal. Or at least that's what i think after hearing lots of stories about him told by people who were personally acquainted with him
    Last edited by pharmakos; 4/16/2008 2:39pm at .
  8. Asriel is offline
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    I'd like to leave this world like I came into it: Screaming, naked & covered in someone else's blood

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2008 2:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai (BJJ hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I saw a Judo teacher attempt to re-set a dislocated toe once

    Turns out it was actually broken...

    The screams haunt me to this day.
    " The reason elite level MMAists don't fight with aikido is the same reason elite level swimmers don't swim with their lips." - Virus

    " I shocked him with my skills on the ice becuase Wing Chun is great for hockey fighting." - 'Sifu' Milt Wallace

    "Besides, as you might already know (from Virus, for example) - there's only 1 wing chun and it sucks big time" - Tonuzaba

    "Even when I'm promising mayhem and butt-chicanery, I'm generally posting with a smile on my face." - Sochin101

    "That said, if he blocked my hip on a drop nage, I would extend my leg into a drop tai Otoshi and slam him so hard his parents would die." - MTripp

  9. Elemental Fist is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2008 3:29pm


     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Geordi LaForge
    Being a ninja destroys his credibility to begin with, so...who cares?
    Well, from what I read real ninjas weren't all about magic and all that mystical crap, they were mostly spies who were weapon, hand to hand combat and explosive specialists. Unfortunatly, the media seem to be in love with the mystical ninja stuff, which is entertaining but can give the wrong idea about Ninjitsu.
  10. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/16/2008 3:35pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why is this not in the JMA forum?
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