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  1. BFGalbraith is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2008 7:52pm


     Style: Tai Chi,BJJ,knife-dueling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    The best TKD ruleset is?

    On the Bill Wallace thread over the last few weeks I had my ass handed to me when I implied Bill Wallace had somehow significantly influenced TKD. From the relatively patient comments of my critics and from searching through a lot of youtube, I began to notice stylistic differences between certain types of TKD.

    Supposedly there's a specific type of TKD style/ruleset that prevents this kind of Wallace/Point Fighting behavior:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A69tR66qIc

    What is the TKD style/ruleset that prevents this kind of kicking?

    (Note: my theory is that leg kicks prevent that kind of technique, so if there is a rule-set-alternative to leg kicks that prevent that side-ways-stance lead-leg kick-fencing in the above video (aka "Wallace technique",) I would like to know what that rule set is.)

    Is there a thread devoted to this topic? (I originally posted this in Newbie town.)
  2. Art is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2008 8:19pm


     Style: TKD, wrestling, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WTF . . . kicking with your foot in the air like that will not award you the point and generally your opponent will simply rush in on you and dump you on your ass if you intend to look like a flamingo.
  3. rsobrien is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2008 10:28pm


     Style: 유도 (Judo)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Leg kicks definetly defeat the sideways stance. It leaves you no way to check the kicks.

    Did someone fart into the loudspeaker at 1:49?
  4. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Y SO SRIUS?

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2008 5:38am

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You seem to have changed your argument some.

    Quote Originally Posted by BFGalbraith
    I'll argue that one right now: his whole concept of martial arts is that karate/TKD thing where you stand on one leg and throw one of three types of snap kicks (not follow through kicks) with the lead leg: side kick, hook kick, or roundhouse kick... He basically popularized what has become modern sport TKD.
    To which the reply came...

    Quote Originally Posted by Errant108
    Wallace had nothing to do with Sport TKD, his style looks nothing sport TKD, & multiple flamingo kicks are not a recommended tactic in sport TKD.
    It should have ended there.

    Your point was that BW influenced what is Olympic TKD. He didnt, and you could offer no proof other than one TKD guy recommending a BW book.
    Try as you might you posted video form a bunch of different styles and proclaimed victory.
    Then I pointed out to you....

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Are the videos you posted even the same "style" of TKD?
    Are they all ATA, ATF, ITF, UTA, CTO, WTF?
    Each of these organizations have their own sparring rule set.
    So if you are going to post video supporting your argument, then post ONLY Olympic TKD videos.

    <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk-_XWeM4Is name="wmode" value="transparent"></param>


    Not too many LEAD LEG kicks there. Mostly turning kicks.

    <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYC8BHNQfOw name="wmode" value="transparent"></param>



    <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7fFsf-pQVc name="wmode" value="transparent"></param>


    Now lets look at Bill Wallace.

    <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI69stoIu2c name="wmode" value="transparent"></param>

    <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NM9n4rJeE5k name="wmode" value="transparent"></param.


    Neither of these look like OLYMPIC TKD or Sport TKD to me. They look like limited rulset Kickboxing which is what they are.
    Last edited by HonkyTonkMan; 4/11/2008 5:43am at .
  5. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/11/2008 10:51am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Olympic rules TKD.

    See the video I posted in the Wallace thread.
  6. BFGalbraith is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2008 3:34pm


     Style: Tai Chi,BJJ,knife-dueling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    You seem to have changed your argument some.
    .
    Yes, I did completely change my argument. Here's some things I learned on the Wallace thread:
    1) All TKD systems not are equal (from searching through a lot of youtube.)
    2) There are significant differences between TKD rulesets (from comments on the thread.)
    3) Bill Wallace didn't approximately-invent what has become modern TKD (comments on thread about dates and timelines on rule set developments.)
    4) TKD was established as a full contact system earlier than the late 1960's (thread comments.)
    5) The only way to prevent lead-leg-fencing is NOT leg kicks (comment on this thread about WTF TKD rules.)

    Here's the latest revisions of my argument: In the 1970's and 80's, the most common way for martial arts schools to compete against each other was piont fighting. IMHO this drug all of the martial arts that competed in it down. (TKD for one, but many other Karate and Kung Fu systems as well.) So why did martial arts Schools allow their students to participate in point fighting? IMHO there was a full contact continuous sparring competition without leg kicks that Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace competed in, that instructors could say "look, our point fighting stuff works in the ring." Evidently a lot of ITF full contact competition does look a lot like what Wallace did, even though it shares the same full contact 1960's roots of Olympic TKD.

    When I tried to show that Wallace was the r3@l master of TKD I was not being completely serious, but I was trying to see how much merit the idea had (even thought it's not what I originally meant.) When I originally said "Bill Wallace has popularized what has become sport TKD" what I meant was there is still a full contact competition without leg kicks, like what Wallace used to justify point sparring, and today that competition isn't a type of "kickboxing" but is instead TKD (to which I should have added a whole lot of "IMHO ".) When I said "sport TKD", I didn't realize that "sport TKD" meant "Olympic TKD only," because last time I did TKD Olympic TKD was just barely on the TKD scene (1989.) For example, if I were to say "George Foreman did sport Boxing" (as opposed to aerobic non-full-contact-sparring boxing,) I wouldn't normally mean "George Foreman did Olympic Boxing."

    Where my argument is breaking down here is that not all TKD systems encourage Wallace technique, which is largely why I am not continuing that argument here in this thread, but instead trying to figure out why some TKD systems aren't doing the wallace kicking, even though they don't allow leg kicks.
    Last edited by BFGalbraith; 4/11/2008 3:58pm at . Reason: details
  7. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/11/2008 3:45pm

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This thread sucks.

    I was hoping it was going to be a discussion about what we all think would make a good ruleset for TKD fighting, and I was going to say the WCL. Much WCL hate would ensue, but I'm serious I think it would work really well for TKD and what TKD is meant to be.

    Instead I find this is a continuation of a lame argument from another thread. Yeah. Sucks.
  8. BFGalbraith is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2008 4:09pm


     Style: Tai Chi,BJJ,knife-dueling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    TKD looks like Wallace

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Neither of these look like OLYMPIC TKD or Sport TKD to me. They look like limited rulset Kickboxing which is what they are.
    But that's just it, compared to kickboxing today, that old American Kicboxing rule set looks a lot like TKD from a kickboxing perspective.
    1) A fairly sideways stance as far as kickboxing stances go (though not as extreme as the ITF videos.)
    2) Compared to other kickboxing, the guard is very low (when I see a kickboxer drop his guard that low I usually assume he's pretty close to being KO'ed,) like what we see in TKD (even a lower guard than knock down karate which doesn't allow punches to the head.)
    3) They don't use punches and kicks in the same combos together very often (like in TKD.) To them punching is one range and kicking is another (because they can't work with close-range shin kicks to the leg, knees, etc.)

    Take a Muay Thai fighter, drop his guard down to his shorts level, don't let him combine kicks with punches, and have him stand sideways, and that superficially looks like TKD to me (thought there's obviously bigger differences then that.)
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/11/2008 4:22pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I bet if I really stretched, I could relate American football to what the rest of the world calls football, cuz obviously the two must be related.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/11/2008 4:24pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Since this is here and I don't want to make your job harder, I'll stay out of this Errant.


    Your analogy is perfect.
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