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  1. benonmsn is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2008 6:54pm


     Style: BJJ, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would first go for my hand guns, given an intruder was present for mobility reasons. But i do keep a shotgun loaded incase i feel that insnt enough. In my shot gun i have 3" magnums with #4. Just a simple Moss 590A1 with ghost ring sites. I feel that the over penetration effects are low, but the damage to my target is high. Although they may not penetrate every organ the bad guy has, he/she will be hamburger and most likely unable to put up a valid fight after that.
  2. bad credit is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2008 7:44pm


     Style: MMA, JKD philosophy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd like to know what the shooters on this forum think of the revolver pistols that can chamber .410 shotgun rounds. It would be easier to move around in a crowded house than a long gun, but for a shotgun it's underpowered, isn't it? Espicially considering the pistol .410 round is smaller than the actual shotgun shell. The old guy at the gun store told me the spread is a lot wider and the range much shorter than a shotgun 'cause the barrel is so much shorter. Wouldn't it be good for room to room or down a hallway, though? It'd be hard to miss, I imagine. I'm just wondering if it would put someone down quick. Can you get slugs and different types of shot in pistol .410?
  3. vigilus is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2008 8:57pm


     Style: Yoshinkan Aikido, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    I'm of the opinion that anyone can get such skill sets down, or at least with a reasonable degree of reliability. Handling drills are handling drills. In my experience, many "civilian" shooters are much better the the pro's, & most anyone can go to courses by Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, or with Gabe Suarez.

    As far as planning to reload mid fight, what happens WHEN you run out of rounds, or have a misfire, stovepipe or jam? C'mon, man....
    I definatly agree that you SHOULD train for that senario but is the average home owner who has a gun for self defense training with a two way range mindset?
    No.
    Their gonna blast away at some paper targets and feel good about themselves.
    Having someone infront of you trying to hurt you pumps the heart rate up, kills fine moterskills.

    Like I said brother, even cops **** the bed when it comes to this kind of realistic training.

    *IF* a gun owner practices reloading and changing mags while under stressful conditions then thats great, however if they don't practice this then I don't think they should count on changing mags/ammo mid fight.

    Will they have to? Quite possibly. Shoudl they aim to avoid it with large capacity mags and the correct rounds, for sure.
    You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it
  4. Lord Skeletor is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2008 9:37pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    During the course of some of my training, I've been fortunate enough to go to HK's ITD, Blackwater, Storm Mountain, Team One Network, NRA/LEAD, L.E.A.D, blah blah blah...

    My personal opinion (and that's all that it is) is that not enough of these schools teach you about the importance of being DEFENSIVE. Most of the emphasis is on being OFFENSIVE and winning the gunfight by blowing some scumbag out of his socks. While this is ultra-cool and l33t---and you win "manly points"; if you're not an active LEO or military---the hassles associated with said "blowing them out of their socks" can literally bankrupt you in legal fees and related proceedings.

    Why don't more of these schools teach you how to grab your gun, grab your cellphone, and haul ass out of your house/to cover and wait for the cops to arrive? They're literally your best defense---plus, armed cops showing up directly during/after a gun battle might be inclined to shoot at anybody with a gun. Plus, I don't relish the fact of getting shot by a scumbag over a stereo or a DVD player that they want. So again...get the means to protect yourself/family (ie, a big goddamn gun)---get them/yourself out of the area and in a position of cover, and wait for the cops. Only "shoot it out" if you absolutely have to.
    Most scumbags when confronted with a barricaded person with a gun, simply are going to leave---in a hurry. No need to be a ninja unless you have to. :new_borgs
  5. Sharkonis is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2008 9:45pm


     Style: Tae Kwon Do, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A good freind once told me, That the biggest problem with having a shotgun in the house is that someone uses it to soon or to late. He's a Cop so I guess he knows the stats. Anywho, just food for thought. Peace
  6. benonmsn is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/08/2008 1:23am


     Style: BJJ, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Skeletor
    My personal opinion (and that's all that it is) is that not enough of these schools teach you about the importance of being DEFENSIVE. Most of the emphasis is on being OFFENSIVE and winning the gunfight by blowing some scumbag out of his socks. While this is ultra-cool and l33t---and you win "manly points"; if you're not an active LEO or military---the hassles associated with said "blowing them out of their socks" can literally bankrupt you in legal fees and related proceedings.

    Why don't more of these schools teach you how to grab your gun, grab your cellphone, and haul ass out of your house/to cover and wait for the cops to arrive? They're literally your best defense---plus, armed cops showing up directly during/after a gun battle might be inclined to shoot at anybody with a gun. Plus, I don't relish the fact of getting shot by a scumbag over a stereo or a DVD player that they want. So again...get the means to protect yourself/family (ie, a big goddamn gun)---get them/yourself out of the area and in a position of cover, and wait for the cops. Only "shoot it out" if you absolutely have to.
    Most scumbags when confronted with a barricaded person with a gun, simply are going to leave---in a hurry. No need to be a ninja unless you have to. :new_borgs

    I think i can answer this well, for most people. As with my post i didnt state a lot of what you said, for a few reasons. First, i have one exit where i live, the front door. i cannot retreat. Also, an encounter would go something along the lines of, getting cover, finger off the trigger, pointed down, and yelling get down, or drop the weapon. If they had a gun, they are shot after i yell drop the weapon. there is no reason, for anyone to enter my place of residence, who isnt a LEO, with a gun. If they do, they get 2 shouts, and thats it. If i entered some one else residence, a police station, an airport, a school, with a gun in hand, i would expect to get shot. that is what a resonable person assumes.

    If some one came in, un armed, and was stealing my tv/radio/pet fish i would not shoot them unless they came at me or went for a weapon. If they choose to run, i wouldnt give chase.

    Alot of things go unsaid during these type of interweb conversations.

    Also, most importantly, you stated ther cops are your best defense. the cops are NOT anyones best defense. YOU are your best defense, always! The police have zero obligation to protect you. People do have the right to defend themselves, and criminals do not deserve the benefit of the doubt when it comes to someones personal safety. that is complete ****. You choose to invade some ones personal space, wit hthe intention of crime, you deal with it. you do not deserve to be retreated from. you deserve to be treated however makes the victim safest, and if that means you no longer being able to advance, so be it.

    Please keep in mind some of those "you's" mean a bad guy, not yourself. I am not sayin you are a criminal or need to be shot =)
  7. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2008 2:54am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Skeletor
    No need to be a ninja unless you have to.
    But, sometimes I just can't help it... :ninjadanc
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  8. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2008 3:01am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by benonmsn
    Also, most importantly, you stated ther cops are your best defense. the cops are NOT anyones best defense. YOU are your best defense, always! The police have zero obligation to protect you. People do have the right to defend themselves, and criminals do not deserve the benefit of the doubt when it comes to someones personal safety. that is complete ****. You choose to invade some ones personal space, wit hthe intention of crime, you deal with it. you do not deserve to be retreated from. you deserve to be treated however makes the victim safest, and if that means you no longer being able to advance, so be it.
    +rep.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  9. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2008 6:55am

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    +rep.

    seconded
  10. Lord Skeletor is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/08/2008 8:41am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by benonmsn
    I think i can answer this well, for most people. As with my post i didnt state a lot of what you said, for a few reasons. First, i have one exit where i live, the front door. i cannot retreat. Also, an encounter would go something along the lines of, getting cover, finger off the trigger, pointed down, and yelling get down, or drop the weapon. If they had a gun, they are shot after i yell drop the weapon. there is no reason, for anyone to enter my place of residence, who isnt a LEO, with a gun. If they do, they get 2 shouts, and thats it. If i entered some one else residence, a police station, an airport, a school, with a gun in hand, i would expect to get shot. that is what a resonable person assumes.

    If some one came in, un armed, and was stealing my tv/radio/pet fish i would not shoot them unless they came at me or went for a weapon. If they choose to run, i wouldnt give chase.

    Alot of things go unsaid during these type of interweb conversations.

    Also, most importantly, you stated ther cops are your best defense. the cops are NOT anyones best defense. YOU are your best defense, always! The police have zero obligation to protect you. People do have the right to defend themselves, and criminals do not deserve the benefit of the doubt when it comes to someones personal safety. that is complete ****. You choose to invade some ones personal space, wit hthe intention of crime, you deal with it. you do not deserve to be retreated from. you deserve to be treated however makes the victim safest, and if that means you no longer being able to advance, so be it.

    Please keep in mind some of those "you's" mean a bad guy, not yourself. I am not sayin you are a criminal or need to be shot =)
    Again..what I said was mostly spoken in generalities and not a slam against anyone who chooses to fight back against a criminal with a firearm. The right to live is the most basic human right that we have. In this day and age, you should have the right to defend yourself with the most effective weapon that you can put your hands on, period. Right now, that's a firearm (in whatever incarnation that it might happen to be in your area).

    And you are certainly correct--many people live on a third floor in an apartment with only one door---nowhere to run, nowhere to go. So it's certainly understandable that your options of "running away" might be limited. I was simply remarking on the current trends of training that I have noticed which were nearly all offensive in nature, instead of perhaps teaching people that it's okay to be defensive as well (and in many cases, it's preferable and safer to be defensive) as opposed to being a ninja and hunting down your intruder.

    As for the cops being your best defense---again you have to take it in context of what I was referring to which is---being in a gunbattle or getting ready to get into a gunbattle.
    Cops are NO ONE'S BEST METHOD OF SELF DEFENSE---EVER. PERIOD. Think about it. If you call 9-1-1 because somebody is about to kill/rape/rob your ass---(if you're that lucky, I doubt you'll be able to), average response times are roughly 5-25 mins depending upon your city, location, and the closest available police unit. Deadly force can be brought to you in seconds from a bad guy. So...the old maxim of "When seconds count...police are but minutes away" comes to mind. What I was actually referring to was that if there was going to be a gun battle---take a good defensive position, preferably with one entrance/exit---keep your gun on that entrance/exit, and let the police shoot it out with the scumbag. Most likely they'll surrender...if not, its easier for them to avoid the inevitable legal proceedings that will likely follow when you shoot some scumbag who was in your house attempting to commit a crime. The cops are armored, in some cases have better weapons, and have access to more resources (via radio) than the average homeowner. So yeah, being a police officer...I would say that an armed homeowner has a much better chance for survival in such confrontations and that homeowners (in a sense as citizens) with guns are your only real quarantee against being maimed, killed, or victimized by a criminal. Usually...by the time the cops show up, whatever damage that has been done, has already been done....and good people have suffered for it if they have no means of self defense. :5shocking
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