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  1. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2008 11:12pm

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     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by meataxe
    I think the article was taking clothing and/or ribcage into account. There were some articles on the validity of ordinary ballistic gelatin tests too. I read it a while back (8yrs?), so the details are fuzzy, but I'm sure about the #1 buck. Not my first-hand research obviously, but it did strike me as a fairly rigorous analysis and the principles seem sound. I'd like to see if someone has done any more recent work.
    I've read that Clint Smith has recommended between #6 BIRDSHOT and #1 Buckshot. Somewhere between #4 and #1 Buckshot is more than adequate, with #1 being proven more lethal than larger shot (00 & 000 buck included).

    Forget the slugs and the big shot, folks. Home defense isn't the open range.

    CONSIDER THE ENVIRONMENT (broken glass/syringes/lava aside...)
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  2. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2008 11:42pm

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     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the responses, guys.

    So is it correct that the appeal of slugs is mostly better ballistics, which would be mostly irrelevant in a house, therefore some type of shot would be better on account of more trauma? Or did I misunderstand?

    Interesting that 00 shot isn't "king". But still, it must be quite traumatic to be hit by?

    Someone asked about my skill level. I'm not sure how to characterize it. I've never been in a firefight before, never been in the military, never been in the police. However, I enjoy going to an outdoor range and shooting at paper targets (cirlces with paint, rather than a bowling pin, which is ridiculously easy to hit when you're relaxed and taking your time) usually from a distance of 50 feet or so. I took two semester-long basic firearms courses in college, where we mostly fired pistols and rifles in .22LR at paper targets 50 feet away, but also I did take a single one-on-one day-long tactical handgun course with a fellow who used to be on a SWAT team during which I used my Ruger P97DC. The instructor of this course said that I was a "great shot", and I believe that I have pretty good hand-eye coordination because I play lots of video games.

    So in terms of firearms I guess I'm probably pretty wimpy but not totally unskilled.
    Last edited by Wounded Ronin; 4/06/2008 11:44pm at .
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  3. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2008 1:33am

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    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin
    Thanks for the responses, guys.

    So is it correct that the appeal of slugs is mostly better ballistics, which would be mostly irrelevant in a house, therefore some type of shot would be better on account of more trauma? Or did I misunderstand?
    Oh, no. You've got it. You can test this very easily. Get a few stacks of old news papers or magazines, lightly tape them together, mount them up and shoot them at a range equal to the longest length of hallway in your house (that being the longest range w/in the home). Then shoot them with your choice of shot VS slugs. It's an easy test you can do yourself to give you a good idea of how they compare.

    Even hunting wild boar, for example, we used 00 buck and slugs staggered. Hit 'em with the buckshot to slow them down for a precision shot with the slug. Of course, we're talking HUNDREDS of pounds of pissed off boar, not a human.

    Interesting that 00 shot isn't "king". But still, it must be quite traumatic to be hit by?
    Certainly. It over-penetrates, though. When it comes to shot, you want force dumped into the target, equating to more shock. If the shot just blows through, of course there's trauma, but less shock.

    Someone asked about my skill level. I'm not sure how to characterize it. I've never been in a firefight before, never been in the military, never been in the police. However, I enjoy going to an outdoor range and shooting at paper targets (cirlces with paint, rather than a bowling pin, which is ridiculously easy to hit when you're relaxed and taking your time) usually from a distance of 50 feet or so. I took two semester-long basic firearms courses in college, where we mostly fired pistols and rifles in .22LR at paper targets 50 feet away, but also I did take a single one-on-one day-long tactical handgun course with a fellow who used to be on a SWAT team during which I used my Ruger P97DC. The instructor of this course said that I was a "great shot", and I believe that I have pretty good hand-eye coordination because I play lots of video games.

    So in terms of firearms I guess I'm probably pretty wimpy but not totally unskilled.
    Hey, you're obviously better off than most here. You want to learn some shotgun skills? Go shoot trap. I shot four rounds this morning (100 rounds give or take a couple for bad birds) with my Mossberg M590 (2.75" shells / 7.5shot) & shot a 16 average in rather high winds (one of the local highways was shut down due to wind). The state ranked shooter next to me shot a 17 or 18 average with an proper trap gun. In optimum conditions (light and wind), most anyone with reasonable hand-eye coordination should be able to pick up 2/3 of their birds.

    Once your average is 20 or better (80%+ accuracy), from there it's just getting to know your gun's pattern (again, a few simple paper target shots will show you that), and getting your handling skills down. Look at vids from Gabe Suarez or Clint Smith's Thunder Ranch dvds for some really great (and qualified :qgaraduat) info.
    Last edited by Jim_Jude; 4/16/2008 2:20pm at .
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  4. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2008 6:03am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually #4 steel shot in a magnum shell is good too. JJ is right.

    The problem with it is that it doesnt have the wall penetration that #00 has.
    One must consider that once the shotgun is racked and the perpetrator doesnt leave he will seek some form of cover that you can defeat to some extent with the #00 buck over smaller shot.

    I am by no means an expert so this is all my personal opinion.
  5. mad_malk is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2008 6:04am


     Style: Krav Maga/ Judo noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    Hey, you're obviously better off than most here. You want to learn some shotgun skills? Go shoot trap. I shot four rounds this morning (100 rounds give or take a couple for bad birds) with my Mossberg M590 (2.75" shells / 7.5shot) & shot a 16 average in rather high winds (one of the local highways was shut down due to wind). The state ranked shooter next to me shot a 17 or 18 average with an proper trap gun. In optimum conditions (light and wind), most anyone with reasonable hand-eye coordination should be able to pick up 2/3 of their birds.
    Very good advice. The other option is during bird season go hunt some birds doves and quail hunting will present some challenge and it's good eat'ens too.
  6. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2008 10:26am

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     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mad_malk
    Very good advice. The other option is during bird season go hunt some birds doves and quail hunting will present some challenge and it's good eat'ens too.
    I agree, but you get more actual "range time" at the range, you see...

    Ah, yes, it's the American Way :new_usa:

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    The problem with it is that it doesnt have the wall penetration that #00 has.
    One must consider that once the shotgun is racked and the perpetrator doesnt leave he will seek some form of cover that you can defeat to some extent with the #00 buck over smaller shot.
    True, it's a trade-off. Myself, I'm not too keen on blowing holes in walls and such. Of course, maintain some level of fire superiority, get his head down, and then load some 00 Buck or a rifled slug from your side saddle or stock shell holder. I can support that, a decisive use of a tactical load, not just blasting away with tactical loads in an urban/suburban/apartment environment. :qright5:
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  7. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2008 3:33pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    NOT JUST BLASTING AWAY!!!!!???

    Are you un-American or something?
    Its the way of the suburban warrior to spray and pray.
    Shame on you for suggesting a logical way to dfend your home.
    Shame I say.
    :)
  8. attakmint is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/07/2008 3:37pm


     Style: mozambique drill

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I remember reading a long article about the legality of shotguns in war. Basically, the conclusion was that there was a long precedence of their use, and that those complaining (Germans during/after WW1) were just whiny losers.
  9. vigilus is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2008 4:41pm


     Style: Yoshinkan Aikido, MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Jude
    f course, maintain some level of fire superiority, get his head down, and then load some 00 Buck or a rifled slug from your side saddle or stock shell holder.
    These guys wouldn't be used to reloading under fire dude. Even cops **** the bed alot while trying to reload in the presense of an evil doer.

    I wouldn't recommend planning to reload at all mid fight.
    You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it
  10. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2008 6:30pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuiltySpark
    These guys wouldn't be used to reloading under fire dude. Even cops **** the bed alot while trying to reload in the presense of an evil doer.

    I wouldn't recommend planning to reload at all mid fight.
    I'm of the opinion that anyone can get such skill sets down, or at least with a reasonable degree of reliability. Handling drills are handling drills. In my experience, many "civilian" shooters are much better the the pro's, & most anyone can go to courses by Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, or with Gabe Suarez.

    As far as planning to reload mid fight, what happens WHEN you run out of rounds, or have a misfire, stovepipe or jam? C'mon, man....
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
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