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  1. IronBuddha is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 6:09pm

    supporting member
     Style: Punch & Kick

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is what I know from my experiences.

    I was just at the Shanghai Institute of Athletics a month ago and sparred with the San Shou team and talked to the head coach as well as the director of the program. Shanghai's Institute is the oldest and one of the most capable as far as athletes go. Keep in mind, they train soccer, tennis, basketball, etc as well.

    Anyhow. What was VERY apparent there was that the Wushu team trains in a different building from the San Shou team. The Wushu guys we talked to didn't care about fighting. It is a performance art to them. They talk about how high they can jump, how fast they can move. The san shou guys laugh at forms. The director made it very clear that the two streams were for two very distinct purposes. Wushu is a visual art, san shou is a competitive sport (figure skating vs hockey). There are no false pretenses there as there is here about wushu being an effective fighting style. As such, you cannot blame them for not being able to fight when they blatantly state that is not their purpose or concern. They cannot be blamed for any distortion that occurs on our side as they have no control over what the "representatives" of Wushu say in north america.

    By talking to the coach and the director, it is very apparent that they are very aware of the limitations of San Shou and the governing body is addressing the issues. After a few wins over the Thais, they lost pretty badly last year and are striving to make improvements. Watching these guys train and training with them (to the best of my abilities) I can see pretty clearly why they beat the Thais previously and how quickly the Thais could adapt to their style. They are blazing fast and really good with throws. Their cardio is superb. I don't think there is any question that the San Shou guys are capable of fighting. As to which style, Thai Boxing or San Shou emerges as the long term victor remains to be seen and the San Shou guys themselves admit they have a ways to go. What is apparent is the methodic and uniform approach being used across China. It is essentially a homogenous adoption of best practices. Thousands of test subjects in all different sizes and abilities. The women's team could lay down a beating as well.

    As far as TMA goes. The goverment there has no hand in that whatsoever. The current state of TMA is pretty much like the current state of the Japanese arts. When the "jutsu" term was dropped for "do", it went from the functional to the philosophical. The whole chi/ki and self-improvement stuff we associate with TMA's is really only a 100-200 year thing. There are a few true TMA'ers out there, hitting the bags and lifting weights and hitting each other. They are just really hard to find among the midst of pseudo-philosophy wanna-bes.

    It's important to keep in mind that the generic term of Kung-fu and Wushu encompass all of these streams and generalizations of any one stream into the other is foolish. Hope this helps.
    Punches in bunches and kicks kicks kicks!
  2. fragbot is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 7:03pm


     Style: japanese jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    where's Tony Montana when you need him?

    Originally posted by Skummer
    It's obvious that the clip discussed is competition wushu, but in most traditional cma schools the focus is, often overwhelmingly, on the questionable practice of solo forms.

    While I have nothing against forms, there are many schools that teach forms almost exclusively. This practice does not generally produce skilled martial artists.
    *waits patiently with hands folded for the arrival of the mad Cuban*

    It's sad something like the above even needs to be written.
  3. Skummer is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 7:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taiji/Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Re: where's Tony Montana when you need him?

    Originally posted by fragbot
    *waits patiently with hands folded for the arrival of the mad Cuban*

    It's sad something like the above even needs to be written.
    I agree. But until things change, it can't be said enough.
  4. Shooter is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 8:00pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    you wanna know what's wrong with CMAs from where I'm standing?
  5. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 8:02pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wanna hear! I love Shooter's posts!
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  6. Halogen is offline
    Halogen's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 8:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: Choy Lay Fut

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by ronin69
    THe ONE thing that makes a Martial Art , a traditional art is SUPPOSE to be COMBAT effectivness.
    TMA were ONLY about combat.
    WHAT the **** happend????
    Was it the chinese and the Japanese teaching BS to the westerners on purpose?
    Was it the commercialization?
    Was it David Carradine in Kung Fu ?????????
    I think it was a combination of the Communist Party in China destroying the martial arts and good old western capitalism.

    Its interesting to see that full contact tournaments were being held in SE Asia every 5(I think) or so years since the late 50's, however in the US they were having non-contact or light contact "he probably would've won" style tourneys. In my opinion the light contact tourneys were simply there to perpetuate the myth of "too dangerous to use fully" and the regular populace of countries that hadn't been exposed to these martial arts when they actually fought, lapped it all up bringing in the $$$.
  7. Shooter is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 8:23pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wastrel, LOL...I'm just trying to rally an audience :D
  8. Punisher is offline
    Punisher's Avatar

    Seeker of Truth

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 8:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: Five Animal Fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't see what the big deal is.

    I never heard someone that does wushu claim they are training for combat effectiveness. Being able to do what is on those clips doesn't make you a good fighter, so what. It still takes a hell of a lot of skill and athleticism.

    I see artistic form competitions as the equivalent of the Navy's Blue Angels, the Air Force's Thunderbirds, and the Army's Golden Knights.
  9. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 8:48pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From what I know the Golden Knights are no bullshit. Those guys don't have namby-pamby backgrounds.
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  10. Shooter is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 9:35pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Jealousy, elitism, and fear.

    Jealousy - "my teacher didn't/doesn't show us how to do those things so it must be bad/wrong"

    Elitism - "this guy won't give up his lineage so he can't be legit"

    Fear - "I'd never have the balls to do what those guys are doing so I'll react negatively to what they're saying even though it's the same thing my teacher says...except we only pay it lip service, and those guys are representin"

    reconize suckas!!


    I've e-met some really cool IMAs people online. They're cool because we groove with each other's sound. HA! :D
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