Karate-A little paste on JKA/Shotokan/Shotokai

[LLL]

Originally posted by patfromlogan
The POINT is that this is a history forum. The paste came (sirprise surprise serprize) from the history link on the left side of the web page. If you don't see the point in learning ma history then WTF are you doing?


And please don't take one move from a kata and dismiss a style. Just like still pictures of fighters look off balance and people always say dumb things like "He's open, why didn't the guy hit him with X technique?" When, if you watch the action, rather than a still picture, you'd see the consecutive movements and why they made sense. Like the picture of Andy Hug doing an axe kick. Gee man, that won't really work, all the other guy has to kick him in the nads, dude.

Hey hey, don't get mad, I wasn't aiming to be insulting, although I somehow often manage to appear like that, at least by judging from the reactions....

You could have linked directly to the history page, of course.

AND I was definitely not dismissing an entire style, actually a couple of weeks ago I was checking out a Shotokai class and they seemed quite OK. I was talking about that one move in the picture.

But I don't know katas as I'm not a karateka, so I only saw that pic which they have put in their site for some reason. & I still think it looks like ****.

I'm sure some really great master might once in 200 years hurt someone with that, but that doesn't make it good...

Of course, if you were referring to my comments about that school, the Wong Fei Hong reference is absolutely ridiculous...

[patfromlogan]

OK LLL, I'm calm now, and I need to be to send my chi blast over the internet! Wham! Did you feel that? Wham Wham Wham! OK OK, now that you're hurting, I'm going back to attacking Omega...

Did you get a chance to look at video clip of Andy Hug's K1 fights where he spin heel kicks the opponents' legs and drops the poor suckers? OUCH! Who was it that said spin techniques don't work? (yah, that is offtopic, but what a hit!)

[Warrior]

I wouldn't be too quick to judge these guys Pat, I have checked out a lot of martial art schools in my time and looking at the teachers this school seems to be associated with, they are all authentic and well known martial art masters. Look at the links they have http://www.uniservity.net/clubs_Rend...30&pageid=5184 .. Plus I dont think they claim to be a Shotokai/kan school cant seem to find it anywhere, judging from what I see they appear to be more Goju-Ryu?

Zeddy - you must be new to the art, Karate in its simplest terms, can be thought of as a system of self-defense which relies mainly on the use of the unarmed body for protection (blocking, punching, striking, and kicking helps with development of physical strength, coordination and agility. but it must not be thought of as just a system of techniques or a discipline of physical exercises. In its true sense Karate should be seen as Karate-doh. Doh - Meaning the way Karate-doh the way of the empty hand.. just like Dojo meaning "Way place"

It is through Karate-Doh that the individual really begins to understand himself and his capacities it is a higher level of understanding. Perfection of techniques through patient effort provides physical and emotional development.

LLL and liuzg150181 I did a bit of research into the Shaolin claim and it is actually true... I think they are suggesting that there lineage originally started with Shaolin. iuzg150181 I couldnt find the 7 generation claim?

Here is the lineage:
Gee Sin Sim (Honan Shaolin Monk)

Hung Hei Goon

Luk Ah Choy

Wong Tai
(Wong Kay Ying's Father)

Wong Kay Ying
(Wong Fei Hung's Father)

Wong Fei Hung
(Master of Hung Gar Kune)

Lam Sai Wing
(Student of Wong Fei Hung + Hung Gar Kune)

Li Sai Wing

Chong Oi Mun

Ron Yamanaka


liuzg150181 about the kick, you would be suprised where a move like that can surface, it may look useless but sometimes what a move looks like can be completely different from its application.. lots of move are hidden in kata!
who have u guys been training with??
Dont think you should judge a book by its cover..

DARK WARRIOR

[Zeddy]

I'll just start off by saying "Hello from two years ago".

Zeddy - you must be new to the art

Not exactly. I trained in a traditional goju ryu school for around eight years. To be more accurate, I was bitching about the non existent standard for romanisation of Japanese. Must have been a bad night.

I'm curious, are you related in any way to that place?

[Jolly_Roger]

I was refering to the technical aspects of shotokan, should have been specific.
I know that the one shot, one kill, theory did NOT change.
The way the reverse punch was thrown slightly changed.

I think that the range of fighting went from short to medium. I trained several years in shotokan, and then some years in shotokai and shito-ryu. JKA Shotokan people used to square of farther, and most of the techniques were long and medium range punches and kicks. Shotokai, and specially shito-ryu, emphasized much more close range application of the same kata, using more of a jujutsu flavor (especially noticiable in the shito-ryu), with a greater emphasis on trips, takedowns and flowing punches (in shito-ryu, the gedan-barai was explained to me as a part of a takedown, instead of a block). The JKA shotokan people used a kind of "cannon style" because their punches were heavier and more long range, and the shito-ryu used a more jujutsu style.

[liuzg150181]

LLL and liuzg150181 I did a bit of research into the Shaolin claim and it is actually true... I think they are suggesting that there lineage originally started with Shaolin. iuzg150181 I couldnt find the 7 generation claim?

If u do can u recite the poems that denotes the Shaolin generation?
I know the poem,and it is time to show u do.
And since i am ethnic Chinese,i can even type out the Chinese version of it.
And which books u referring? I even read the Shaolin Encyclopedia published in China~~~

Here is the lineage:
Gee Sin Sim (Honan Shaolin Monk)

Hung Hei Goon

For ur info Gee Sin Sim and Hung Hei Goon is related to the so-called Southern Shaolin temple,whose history is quite obscure~~~
And i bet you cant tell btw Cantonese and Mandarin~~~

Luk Ah Choy

Wong Tai
(Wong Kay Ying's Father)

Wong Kay Ying
(Wong Fei Hung's Father)

Wong Fei Hung
(Master of Hung Gar Kune)

Lam Sai Wing
(Student of Wong Fei Hung + Hung Gar Kune)

Li Sai Wing

Chong Oi Mun

Ron Yamanaka

U for ur info,the lineage of the Shaolin(Henan) temple is now something like 30+ generation.And yes,u can deduct his generation 'rank' from his/her Chinese character of the Buddhist name~~~

liuzg150181 about the kick, you would be suprised where a move like that can surface, it may look useless but sometimes what a move looks like can be completely different from its application.. lots of move are hidden in kata!
who have u guys been training with??
Dont think you should judge a book by its cover..

DARK WARRIOR

Go for an eye checkup,i am NOT the one who doubted it,dumbass~~~ :icon_geek ek

[Soyo Juku deshi]

Essentially, you don't know,...

that Nakayama was outcast from the SHOTOKAN association ( the SHOTOKAI ) after the boycott of Roushi's funeral in 1957, and now in Japan, the JKA style is to be called 'kyokai', not shotokan.

Mitsuke Harada Sensei's style is NOT representative of Shotokai, - for clarity, and comparison google my teacher Yasuo Ikeda Sensei, or his private school, the "soyo juku". Taught here was the continuation of Egami, and thus Funakoshi senseis' TRUE intended direction for 'karate'.

"kyokai style" is that of the junior students ( of which Nakayama was one) of Funakoshi Roushi, the seniors did nothing like this. The appointed head of the style, after Roushi's passing was Egami Sensei- Nakayama is not recognised as the head of any thing in Japan called Shotokan.

Stances in "Japanese"shotokai, either the Hironishi stream, or so-called 'soyo juku' stream are VERY much lower than anything called shotokan in the west.

JKA ippon kumite, to be honest, is so very much attenuated as to be useless...

Look up Egami Sensei, ignore fools/or erroneous postings anywhere saying he is '10th' dan( specifically, fact ignorant postings on 'wiki' and the like). He was the CHOSEN (by Roushi Sensei) head of the Shotokai. The suppression of his 1970 'master piece' "Karate-Do: Senmonka Ni Okeru" ("The Way of Karate for the Specialist") is a questionable act by the NKS ( Nihon Karate-Do Shotokai). It contains the specific crystallisation of the wishes of Funakoshi Roushi. One wonders at the intention of Hironishi Sensei, OR 'the powers that be' over this situation.

I await the cavalcade of 'responses'.

PM me for detailed text references from Japanese publications, rather than those of the interpretations of Harry Cook- for these are in some senses, questionable, however well researched.

A P.S.

To my knowledge, this is the first time a verified, bona fide member of a GENUINE Japan affilated, trained & recognised SHOTOKAI ( either NKS or Soyo Juku, or their off-shoots ) group has posted here- that will be why the facts in the posting may be news to many...

[Asriel]

[twinkie]

. Shotokai, and specially shito-ryu, emphasized much more close range application of the same kata, using more of a jujutsu flavor (especially noticiable in the shito-ryu), with a greater emphasis on trips, takedowns and flowing punches (in shito-ryu, the gedan-barai was explained to me as a part of a takedown, instead of a block).

Just for your info (if you didnt know) don't limit Gedan-Barai to just being a lower block. Gedan-Barai can be Haraitoshi Uke and or a throw. Just because it is one technique never think of it as one application. Same goes for kata, just because you see only one technique, do not limit yourself to thinking only one application.

[dustymars]

November 8, 2008

JAPAN’S LIVING LEGEND DIES AT 80
(Los Angeles, CA)
The International Traditional Karate Federation (ITKF) is in mourning today following the passing of their President and Chairman, Hidetaka Nishiyama at the age of 80. Mr. Nishiyama was a world renowned karate master well known for his steadfast dedication to the preservation and protection of the Martial Art of Traditional Karate.
“Mr. Nishiyama passed away peacefully following his struggle with cancer”, a family spokesperson said.

http://www.itkf.org/files/MediaRelea...sing110808.pdf