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  1. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2008 12:30am

    Join us... or die
     Style: sambo/crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not having worked with the machine (&why would I) I am still confident in saying that you do not get this kind of musculature from the piece of crap:

    Many things we do naturally become difficult only when we try to make them intellectual subjects. It is possible to know so much about a subject that you become totally ignorant.
    -Mentat Text Two (dicto)
  2. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2008 8:05am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^^ thread winnah
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  3. couch13 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/02/2008 3:28pm


     Style: TKD, Boxing & SW

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Bowflex is a piece of ****. To be honest, the one thing its good for is building a bicep peak (which you can do without a Bowflex). I've had a history with the Bowflex and its not a pretty sight.

    I was twelve and very very stupid (the advertisers dream come true), I saw an infomerical for the Bowflex Ultimate and instantly went to their website (for unbiased information :suicide: ) and was hooked by the argument that it works best for strength development. Much arguing with my parents later I got them to order one for all of our benefit.

    Fast forward two years and I'm fourteen and a freshman in high school. I had been working out with the Bowflex for two years now and thought I was pretty cool. I sign up for Intro to Weights at the school to fulfill my PE requirements and quickly realize how much the Bowflex doesn't work. I was a fucking ***** on free weights. After a semester on free wieghts, the Bowflex was the easiest piece of **** to use ever. I sign up right away for Advanced Weights and never looked back.

    In lieu of the Bowflex and Advanced Weights (never do high school lifting, it sucks balls) right up until this year I've done purely calisthenics and now I use Kettlebells, all of which are much better than that piece of **** known as a Bowflex. BTW, in case your wondering I'm eighteen now.
  4. tyciol is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/02/2008 4:52pm


     Style: Tae Kwon-Do, Fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire
    Just out of curiosity, I have heard people say that the bowflex supposedly makes you more ripped then building strength/size (This guy was an idiot though to be honest),
    You answered your own question ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire
    I have heard people say it doesn't matter it is just resistance,
    When people say this, they mean that it doesn't matter whether the resistance comes from weight or from warping an object, and this is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire
    but still I imagine the force curve (More resistance as you continue the motion) affecting you somehow.
    Yes, it does affect you. This isn't an inherant thing for bowflexes anymore though, the newest one (Revolution) doesn't have a force curve like the old models.

    The force curve is similar to that you get from using chains (only without the swaying), elastic bands, or the varying resistance from nautilus machines. This is sort of simplifying it, but for the most part it basically it makes it harder as your muscles shorten, so it focuses more on building strength in a position of shortened muscles, the idea being that you are naturally stronger when they are shortened. This is something which is not accepted and sort of argued about, I don't really know myself.

    In regards to pushing exercises, it takes better advantage of skeletal alignment. For something like a bench press, it will be very hard, but since your arm is nearly locked out, the bone alignment aids the muscles in levering the weight up.

    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire
    How do you guys think bowflex/crossflex/whatever with rods or those circle things compare to more classic exercises?
    By circle thing do you man the new plates the revolution uses or something? Anyway, I think it 'compares' in that there are varieties in the force curve so you'll feel it differently, which you tend to do with most new movements anyway. Variety is a good option to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    The bowflex is a piece of crap. The only use of a bowflex is to find out who suckers are. If you know someone who owns a bowflex, they are in fact a sucker, that will pay absurd amounts of money for a gimmick. Exploit this knowledge for the sake of gambling and borrowing money.
    A lot of people talk **** about the bowflex like this, and it gets them labeled as meatheads. The advertisements for the bowflex are lame, and it is overpriced, and it might not provide enough resistance for elite powerlifters, but it is definately not a 'gimmick'. It is progressively increasing resistance with a variety of movements. That's not a gimmick, it's a home gym. It's just fancy and big dollars, which aren't necessary but some folks go for because it makes them feel less intimidated by the equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon
    The very premise that the bowflex is based on is flawed. The resistance is least through the range of motion where your muscles are weakest, and greatest where your muscles are strongest. This means that the resistance changes based on the HEIGHT of the user. I, as a short person, can put every single bit of resistance on the BowFlex and push it out to full extension. My friend who is 6'8" ,and benches more than I do, can't push out half of the resistance because his arms are so long.
    How exactly is this a flawed premise? All this means is that you can't have a measuring contest with your tall benching friend. It doesn't affect measuring progress on an individual basis. Some strong guys can max out the power lifts on some of the machines. Which machine was it, and how many pounds were you benching on it, for how many repetitions? I had always wondered if someone got to this point if it would be possible to hold both pulleys in 1 arm and bench 1 arm at a time, effectively doubling the max tension you could put on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by user0001
    i bought and sold one to a fellow sucker after having it for a month back in 2004/5ish (i have a memory span of a gnat). it was cool looking but the most unsturdy piece of crap. and i had it sitting on a concrete floor. at least with free weights even a fucknut knows to at least pick up and put down the weight. the bowflex was the most uncomfortable/confusing thing ever, i couldnt adjust any of the pulleys to a proper angle for me. and i dont care what they say, i kept feeling like something was going to snap and fuckin bitch slap me.

    with the bowflex you sit in the middle of this machine thats supposedly does everything... knowing what i know now... but does everything shitty. it's the same as machines in a gym, its for beginners, once you have enough strength not to brain yourself with a weight you move over to the free weights **caveat** generally speaking.

    that said, if you're really bent on getting it... go for it, excercise is excercise. speaking as someone who cycles through being a slob and fit, anything that gets you motivated for working out is a good thing.
    Did you also buy it used? Did you assemble it well? Was it an older model? I'd expect the models to get progressively sturdier as they work out design flaws based upon complaints. One of the models I heard apparently the lat tower breaks easily and kept snapping off and falling on people's heads, sounded scary. Can't remember if I confirmed that in a news article or just read a random review though.

    A lot of people find the instability of the pulleys to be uncomfortable and confusing, this is an issue of personal preference though, others may adapt to it.

    Machines in gyms are not only for beginners, lots of strong people do also use machines. Like how Ronnie Coleman uses a leg press. I am glad you finished off admitting it is a valid way to exercise though, that was a good save.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    I used to work at a sporting goods store, and the manager had a deal that if any of us could sell a bowflex, he would take us out to lunch anywhere we wanted. We all failed.

    I was actually in charge of dismantling the store display bowflex back when they all got recalled for having resistance bands that would snap mid workout. That was fun.
    Your story sounds a bit questionable, Bowflexes have never used resistance bands. They use Rods, with nylon cords that have a handle on one end, go through a pulley or more, and have a metal hook on the other which hookes on to the rod.

    The newest model uses elastic bands enclosed safely within a plastic cyclinder which would not be recalled as a safety hazard. I am not sure why failing to sell a machine is some indication of a machine's worthlessness. No doubt, with preconceived notions about a machine's worthlessness, a customer may pick up on this and not want to buy the machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    The bowflex is the essense of everything that's wrong with the health industry today. The only redeeming part could be the chest pressing parts, but that's about it. Everything else forces you to work your muscles in isolation.
    This is not true, there are lat pulldowns, leg presses, many have squat bar attachments, overhead pressing, etc. It is true that there are many options for joint isolation (not muscle isolation) movements, this is a common thing and not exactly wrong, though it's better if it doesn't form the core of a program.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    Also, there is no logic in the 'convenience factor' of working at home. A person as mentioned in the last paragraph that is in a financial position to buy this crap can also afford to go to a health club/gym or buy his own free weight equipment.
    The 'conveniance' is not simply the cost. You save the travel time going to a gym, you do not have to wait in line for equipment, you can share it with friends and relatives. Most people don't know the first thing about free weights and can't suddenly buy a set and use it to work out at home. Using a home gym system is easier. Buying a set of home free weights makes more sense for someone who already has lifting experience or who has already read extensively about the variety of movements and proper form for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    1. it is expensive
    Yes, this is a serious problem. Various things have varying values for various people though. Rich people have more money to burn, and some need the comforting aspects pampered machines like these provide.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    2. it's strictly an isolation machine (yikes, not functional!),
    You gave an example of a compound movement so I don't know why you say 'strictly'. Furthermore, just because a movement is isolation does not mean it is not functional, nor would all compound movements be functional. What functions are you training for anyway? These are mostly for building strength and body integrity, if you want to train for function you can do skill drills.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    3. it is too much for someone just starting,
    Too much what? Money? That's 1. Variety of exercises? Just limit yourself, my guess is the guidebook that comes with the machine doesn't say "start with all 50" but more like "pick 3-5 things to do, here is what we recommend" and likely picks stuff like compounds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    4. it is nothing for someone with experience,
    This is heard a lot, yet those saying they've maxed it never specify on what machine, and the weight, and the reps, and the moves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    5. there are better, cheaper alternatives.
    This is very possible, they're not too well publicized though, and people might be afraid of a lack of warranty or trust in the company name if problems arise.

    Quote Originally Posted by theotherserge
    Not having worked with the machine (&why would I) I am still confident in saying that you do not get this kind of musculature from the piece of crap:

    Why are you so confident?

    The commercials use fitness models to demonstrat the movements because they have defined muscles which better illustrate what is being worked by specific movements. Yes, it is a marketing gimick, but EVERYONE uses marketing gimmicks, so people, stop freaking out about it nad look past the gimmick.

    I want to know the source of your confidence. I think you could get as muscular as that guy using that machine. Show me a guy tinier than that who is following the Bowflex's rep range recommendation for its movements.

    The only thing misleading about that is he is doing a bicep curl on the lowest setting. Again: for demonstration purposes.

    Quote Originally Posted by couch13
    Fast forward two years and I'm fourteen and a freshman in high school. I had been working out with the Bowflex for two years now and thought I was pretty cool. I sign up for Intro to Weights at the school to fulfill my PE requirements and quickly realize how much the Bowflex doesn't work. I was a fucking ***** on free weights. After a semester on free wieghts, the Bowflex was the easiest piece of **** to use ever. I sign up right away for Advanced Weights and never looked back.

    In lieu of the Bowflex and Advanced Weights (never do high school lifting, it sucks balls) right up until this year I've done purely calisthenics and now I use Kettlebells, all of which are much better than that piece of **** known as a Bowflex. BTW, in case your wondering I'm eighteen now.
    Dude, a semester is half a year, you could have had a growth spurt, or maybe you benefitted from the competetive atmosphere of being around other guys and actually tried hard.

    Saying "I trained with the bowflex for two years" is meaningless. How strong did you get on it exactly? You said the Bowflex was easy after training free weights, this implies you found it hard before. If you still found it hard, this means you hadn't even maxed out the machine.

    You found a form of training which worked better for you. This isn't even necessarily due to the tools you were using, but could have instead been your age or the peer support group and teacher's guidance. There are far too many factors in play here for you to use your experience to say that the Bowflex sucks. You are lacking objectivity and want to blame the machine instead of yourself because you didn't spend those two years working as hard as you might have, or maybe you did but only got a big test spike at 16 so up until then muscle just wouldn't grow much from anything.

    This said, I'm not disagreeing with kettlebells being great, they're versatile and interesting free weights.
    Last edited by tyciol; 4/02/2008 5:22pm at .
  5. theotherserge is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2008 6:24pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: sambo/crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm confident because you answered it for me, "fitness models" (dumbass).

    Perhaps I could get buffed&stuff on a Bowflex but I wouldn't bother. Everything I do, conditioning-wise, is specific to Sambo. I'm just not interested in gimmickercise. Citing the rest of the industry doing it therefore its ok doesn't work for me either.

    Otherwise, I look forward to this thread getting really interesting...*enter Emevas&TeM*
  6. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2008 8:40pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your story sounds a bit questionable, Bowflexes have never used resistance bands. They use Rods, with nylon cords that have a handle on one end, go through a pulley or more, and have a metal hook on the other which hookes on to the rod.

    Bah, you're being petty, you knew what the hell I meant.

    And holy wall of text batman!
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  7. Sharkonis is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/02/2008 8:51pm


     Style: Tae Kwon Do, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Its a descent machine. I use it in conjunction to free weights. It almost feels like your getting a good stretch when you use it a day or two after a good pump. It should not be the core of your training but once to twice a week along with a free weight progrom has been very beneficial to at least myself.


    Sharkonis
  8. meataxe is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2008 9:03pm


     Style: Wu style tcc+bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    $1600? From the look of it, I figured it would be $300.

    Does anyone have plans for a self-spanking machine?
    Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.
    - Voltaire
  9. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2008 9:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by meataxe
    $1600? From the look of it, I figured it would be $300.

    Does anyone have plans for a self-spanking machine?
    Yeah, every bowflex owner I've ever known has said the same thing to me. "I don't care how much it cost/Money is no object/etc etc", and I just plain never get it. If you can get better for cheaper, why wouldn't you? It's like buying a Yugo for $200,000, and then when someone says "You coulda had a 'vette", you just blow it off.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  10. meataxe is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2008 9:31pm


     Style: Wu style tcc+bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For $1,600, I think you could get a decent home gym, plus something like on this page: http://associety.blogspot.com/2007/0...-machines.html

    (Possibly NSFW, if you don't working in a spanking-positive workplace.)
    Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.
    - Voltaire
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