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  1. drunkenj is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2003 8:28am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    deadlift , cleans, roman chair ==== its really important to keep flexibility and suppleness in your lower back so make sure you stretch properly or maybe even try yoga ( though i dont)

    just be really carefull back injuries are the worst
  2. Nid is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Oct 2003
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2003 11:40am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    it may cause your anal tampon to squirt out in the middle of the gym
    wtf??

    That was awsome. Rolling out of bed to funnies rules.
  3. WhiteShark is offline
    WhiteShark's Avatar

    1% Shark is better than you.

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    9,179

    Posted On:
    11/19/2003 1:20pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    keinhaar, ok so we understand that you don't like powercleans. BUT, what do you recommend instead? You have provided no alternatives while refuting the advice others have given. That's really not very helpful.
  4. Nid is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2003 4:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Plain old dead lifts if one's back is *already* up to it. Hyper extensions if otherwise. It's the ballistic nature of cleans I take exception to.
  5. lechuza is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2003 5:03pm


     Style: BJJ, No-Gi, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    yes, but there can be quite a bit of "ballistic nature" in wrestling/mma--like an arching throw:
  6. Nid is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2003 5:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's the kind of thing one should definitly prepare for in the weight room, but not *mimic*. One would do the specifics of his craft with what he'd use in the field, so to speak. Just as a high jumper wouldn't don a back-pack of lead shot. It's an inefficient way to build strength (not to say it wouldn't at all), and useless as far as applicable body mechanics go.
    Last edited by Nid; 11/19/2003 5:20pm at .
  7. lechuza is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2003 5:23pm


     Style: BJJ, No-Gi, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i think i see what you're saying but, your analogy is weak.
    in the gym one wouldn't power clean 225 lbs. in training to fight an opponent of that same weight--that is common sense. One would do power cleans at 95, 115, or 135 lbs.

    It takes a different set of muscular co-ordination to control weight in a power clean. It is a bit more complex than the deadlift--it requires more fast twitch muscle and more dynamic balance... it's not as static as the deadlift.
  8. Nid is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2003 6:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One would do power cleans at 95, 115, or 135 lbs.

    Prepare for more anal retentiveness...admittedly. If what one is trying to improve something one has to have a means of determing if the method one uses is, in fact, working. This lighter weight is being accelerated as rapidly as possible because it's supposed to do something *different* to the body compared to a controlled movement which recruits (and provides the impetus for strength gains in) virtually the same exact muscle groups.

    So if the improvement one is looking for is above and beyond 'strength' it must be how the strength is applied, and all I need to know is how that's measured. If it can be measured, then multiple measuresments can be taken and then a trend can be determined. So what is the measuring criteria, and what is the trend? And THEN what is the use of this outside of the gym?

    It takes a different set of muscular co-ordination to control weight in a power clean.

    Of course it does. The question is whether or not the coordination (MU recruitment, balance etc) developed in the gym and for the gym matters outside the gym. I say it doesn't. If you want greater strength as it applies to any way you decide to move your shoulder in any venue, the thing to do is increase the strength/size of the deltoid in the safest manner possible which accomodates the greatest degree of muscle fiber recruitment and exhaustion (intensity). If you're *just* concerned with getting as much weight as possible over your head, that's a different matter entirely. And if you're concerned with the former, but want greater nervous system efficiency as it applies to the things you intend to use, then do those very things with the speed, force and form in which you expect them to be undertaken.

    It is a bit more complex than the deadlift--it requires more fast twitch muscle...

    Maybe I'm mininterpreting you, but this would seem to imply that fast twich recruitment is somehow neccesarily compromised by lifting more slowly, or simply trying to maintain the same force over time. That's just not the case. Here's part of the article that Djimbe posted...

    Say you were to help someone lift a heavy couch up a flight of ten stairs. You would use your hands as grips and let your legs do all the work. On the first step your legs will start to recruit type IIa fibers. By the 2nd or 3rd step your nervous system does not recruit more motor units. This being the case the first set of fibers rest and more type IIa fibers are recruited. Along with these, a number of type IIb fibers are called into play (to maintain fluent motion up the stairs).

    As your journey continues more type IIa and type IIb fibers are recruited until by the last step they have all come into play. Your muscle fibers weren't twitching at maximum speed until the end of the stairs when they neared failure. The faster a muscle fiber twitches the greater the force is. At the beginning, the fibers weren't forced to twitch at maximum frequency to overcome the weight, but at the end they had to produce as much force as possible to overcome the weight. This is how recruitment is designed to maintain a certain amount of force.


    So far so good.

    Here's the next part...this is important too.

    Low repetition work (in the 1-5 rep range) provides an extremely unique adaptation. To overcome the weight, your body must recruit as many motor units as humanly possible. This will cause your nervous system to become more efficient at this process. Over time, you will learn to lift the heavier weight with all (or close to as possible) of your motor units in one rep. Powerlifters are brutally strong for this reason. They can basically make all the their motor units fire at once.

    Yes, powerlifters are brutally strong for that reason (amongst others) in the particular lifts that they do. If their strength gains, theoretically, are improved on account nervous system improvement solely, that wouldn't make a bit of difference as it applies to any other movement.

    Here's a snippet I rememberd from an article I read (forgot where);

    "At the last grip strength competition I attended, I happened to win one of the many contests. A few guys came up to me afterwards and asked how I developed such impressive strength in the thick-bar dead lift. 'Gripper machines? Farmer walks?' they asked. I answered: 'By doing the thick-bar deadlift.' "
    Last edited by Nid; 11/19/2003 6:35pm at .
  9. Chudo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2003 6:32pm


     Style: Chu-Do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If one says one enough then one doesn't actually have to make sense or know what one is talking about.

    Sorry--one could hardly resist.
  10. Chudo is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2003 6:32pm


     Style: Chu-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    just stfu and lift!
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