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  1. Ronin is offline

    Senior Member

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    Sep 2003
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    Posted On:
    11/18/2003 1:42pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks dude :)
  2. lechuza is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2003 3:37pm


     Style: BJJ, No-Gi, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Edge:
    get into Bent Over Rows. that'll help greatly with lower back stregth.

    keinhaar:
    to each his own, but I disagree. Power Cleans rule. They're great for increasing over-all explosive body strength and they get your heart pumping like a mofo. Power Cleans hit your fore-arms, biceps, delts, romboids, traps, lats, lower back--not to mention quads gluts and hams--it's a great over-all exercize that can be used to increase anaerobic endurance as well as aerobic, depending on how you do them.
  3. Nid is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2003 7:07pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To say that deadlifts don't strengthen the lower back is the same as saying that bicep curls don't work the biceps. The requirements for working the lower back are not that it be the opposite of a crunch.
    Like I already noted, developing strength does not neccesarily hinge on a particular ROM being achieved, otherwise there would be no value whatsoever in isometric contractions...yet there are. In fact, many of the muscles being worked in the dead lift are being worked in that very manner; that includes the musculature of much of the lumbar spine (as well as forearms, upper back, even ab to a degree). Proper form for, be it dead lifts or cleans, require that the back be straight. It doesn't mean it's not benefitting the back, however.

    Having said that, if one were to undertake a *full ROM exercise* for the lumbar muscles exclusively, it would, neccesarily, have to be "the opposite of an ab crunch". That's what lumbar extension is; this is not subject to debate. If one wanted to play catch-up with the lumbar muscles before undertaking a compound movement invovling said muscles (a la deads or cleans), then that's the movement one would want. I never meant to imply that deads do nothing for them, and I don't believe I ever said so.

    Power Cleans rule. They're great for increasing over-all explosive body strength
    Strength yes. Explosive...no. Strength is malleable and most importantly measureable. "Explosive" denotes time. Are you measuring how quickly you can accelerate the weight? Is that increasing? How do you measure it? These are questins which have to be answered, I'm afraid. Sounds nit-picky, but there's plenty of bullshido regarding gym work too. Most of it is regarding increasing speed, and more absurdly it's carry-over to unrelated activites. Ronin is gently introducing people to the idea that speed, force, power...whatever you wanna call it in the vernacular...isn't all that trainable.

    Power Cleans hit your fore-arms,
    So do deads.

    biceps,
    Not well. By time it gets to that phase we're coasting on 90% momentum.

    delts
    ,

    Deads too.

    romboids,
    Deads.

    traps,
    Deads.

    lower back
    Deads.

    --not to mention quads gluts and hams
    Deads too.

    --it's a great over-all exercize that can be used to increase anaerobic/aerobic endurance depending on how ya do them
    There's really only one kind of endurance. Neither metabolic pathway can be completely turned on or off at our whim.

    The force generated in cleans do two things. #1. The load on the tissues decreases as rapidly as the weight is accelerated and incurs momentum. The problem with this is that one is accruing fatigue primarily in the weakest portion of the lift mechanically.

    Why is that a problem? Because intensity is what accounts for the impetus for gains in size and strength...that's just THEE fundamental axiom in most of strength training. Intensity is a matter of being able to exhaust as many muscle fibers capable of becoming so. Think of where conentric failure invariably occurs. In the weakest mechanical ROM. In, say, the bench press, if one can be helped over that mechanical hump about mid-way through the lift, one finds that he can finish the last third or so. What does that mean? It means there are still unexhausted muscle fibers, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to move the weight at all. This is why people perform forced reps, negatives, drop sets, slow reps etc. To increase the intensity.

    So how does this relate to cleans? One is willfully exacberating this process by accelerating as rapidly as possible. You are not achieving the kind of intensity you would be by way of lifting with such a speed as to deprive yourself of the mechanical advantages of momentum, gravity etc. After not so many degrees of rotation of the hips, knees, and back, the weight is practically lifting itself under the momentum one purposely created. Secondly Lifting under a semblance of control means you know the forces you, not only are producing, but are *subjecting* your tissues to (namely the equivolent of the weight you're lifting). This is a safety issue.

    If one disagrees and wants to reconcile this, one would have to determine how external force production relates to *improving* speed (not just displaying it) and how it's empirically measured. Regarding strength, the whole book would have to be re-written if it's NOT intensity which provides the impetus for such gains.

    The way I see it, one is decreasing intensity for the sake of displaying speed, the measuring and improvement of which we're not so sure about (much less as it relates to other activities). Efficient use of time? IMO, no.

    And that's, of course, just my opinion.
    Last edited by Nid; 11/18/2003 7:11pm at .
  4. Chudo is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2003 10:30pm


     Style: Chu-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You sure do talk alot about something you obviously know very little about.

    I don't have the time to point by point destroy the drivel you have posted, so I'll just say most of what you have posted is bullshit. If you want to know how to strengthen your lower back then go back and read what I and a couple of others have already posted. It's really VERY SIMPLE. Ignore keinhaar. He's fairly intelligent but very puny.
  5. lechuza is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2003 10:36pm


     Style: BJJ, No-Gi, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    keinhaar:
    your response seems articulate...but its unnecessary verbosity fails to obscure the fact that there is a difference between deadlifting 135 lbs. and power cleaning 135 lbs. i'm not interested in changing your opinion.

    Edge: just bend over and fucking row. you're already way too faggy not too.
  6. Chudo is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2003 10:51pm


     Style: Chu-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Take it like a man Edge.
  7. Nid is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2003 11:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    but its unnecessary verbosity fails to obscure the fact that there is a difference between deadlifting 135 lbs. and power cleaning 135 lbs.
    I agree....just not for the same reasons; as explained.

    i'm not interested in changing your opinion.
    Not a problem. Not a problem at all.

    I would also like to genuinly thank you for your tact in saying so.
  8. Chudo is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/18/2003 11:08pm


     Style: Chu-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Have you ever done even ONE powerclean keinhaar? Or a deadlft? Or did you just get on a website and read about them?
  9. FingerorMoon? is offline

    The man they call FoM

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    Jan 2003
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2003 12:00am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    unnecessary verbosity
    He who writes the most words wins.


    It's really VERY SIMPLE. Ignore keinhaar. He's fairly intelligent but very puny.
    Now thats funny sig material.
    The Wastrel - So attractive he HAS to be a woman.
    - Pizdoff
  10. lechuza is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2003 8:21am


     Style: BJJ, No-Gi, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Edge
    Only a ****** uses the word "faggy".
    Okay, Mr Noblet. Now that you've defiantly asserted you're sexual preference... you may just want to skip the Bent Over Rows cuz it may cause your anal tampon to squirt out in the middle of the gym:D
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