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  1. G-Off is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2008 9:13pm


     Style: Ronin wannabe

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    SO YEAH BILL WALLACE IS SURE A DOUCHE WHEN IT COMES TO MMA AND NOT SPORT TKD WHICH IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT, AMIRIGHT?!?
  2. BFGalbraith is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/02/2008 9:27pm


     Style: Tai Chi, Jujitsu, knife

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Errant108
    The Gyorugi ruleset, what became Olympic TKD, dates back to the late 60s. It was always full contact and never invluded leg kicks... The American martial arts consumer, especially at the time, was a miniscule population.
    I hope you realize you just took all the fun out of blaming TKD on Bill Wallace.

    This explains why some pre-Olympic Tae Kwon Do people were so pro Full-Contact (Dave Bird and Victor Solier were both TKD black belts.) I suppose this also explains importance of the organizational association of the TKD school (since it could have a lot to do with how full contact that school was.) This has me wondering if the pre-Olympic TKD had an influence on no-legs-kickboxing not having leg kicks... though it seems just as likely that it was point-sparring + American boxing as it was TKD (not that there was a big distinction in the USA before the 88 Olympics.)
  3. BFGalbraith is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/02/2008 9:38pm


     Style: Tai Chi, Jujitsu, knife

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KenshinBt10
    SO YEAH BILL WALLACE IS SURE A DOUCHE WHEN IT COMES TO MMA AND NOT SPORT TKD WHICH IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT, AMIRIGHT?!?
    This is speculation, but I really don't think TKD would have really been popular in the USA if MMA had been around first. Along those same lines, I don't think TKD would have become popular here if kickboxing with leg kicks had been popular first. I think TKD exploded in the USA because Point Sparring and no-legs-kickboxing was all "martial artists" here were doing (besides judokans/wrestlers/boxers,) since in 1988 USA full contact competitors were just starting to do kickboxing with leg kicks. Bill Wallace is the #1 name when it comes to justifying no-leg-kicks fighting in the USA, because of his "ultimate kick" theory and success in "kickboxing" competition.
    Last edited by BFGalbraith; 4/02/2008 9:41pm at .
  4. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/03/2008 5:33am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BFGalbraith
    Wallace's horrible and popular kicking technique no longer persists in any sport in the USA besides TKD and point fighting. Though Wallace was a Karate instructor who in theory must have had his student base threatened by TKD '88, he never made any discouraging comments about TKD like he did MMA (because TKD is pretty much a 100% endorsement of Wallace.)
    Two things here.

    1) Logic Epic Fail. TKD is considered a TMA. Wallace has made his living off of TMA's. Of course he isnt going to trash them.

    2) Have you ever competed in a TKD point sparring match? Wallaces kicking strategy isnt practical for that. Two or three kicks to the head at once=not practical.

    Quote Originally Posted by BFGalbraith
    I admit it's possible-though-not-likely that the foundation of crap Wallace built for TKD to grow on in the united states was not a significant factor in TKD exploding in popularity in the USA after the 88 olympics. If kickboxing with leg kicks had been well known in the USA before the TKD olympics in 88, I doubt TKD would have exploded in popularity here. Wallace wasn't specifically trying to get leg kicks introduced to kickboxing, so he obviously didn't care about how important it was, and he did at least try to legitimize the no-legs-USA-kickboxing by claiming his success in the competition gave him some kind of serious credentials.

    Maybe Bill never gave leg kicks a second thought because they werent part of his ruleset. Maybe he didnt deliberatly"try" to have them kept out.

    Quote Originally Posted by BFGalbraith
    (Dave Bird of Tae Sho Arnis and Victor Solier of TKD were two who wanted kickboxing with leg kicks in the USA in 88-89, which ironically they got with the popularization of TKD. This IMHO is because martial arts people who didn't want leg kicks could retreat to the sanctuary of sport TKD. As for any "why don't you throw down" comments any other of you have made about TKD, I have two words for you: Victor Solier. I realize that there are exceptions to the "TKD sucks" rule, but these exceptions involve cross training and leg kicks, things not encouraged by participation in sport TKD.)
    In other words, you have a big fucking mouth.

    You didnt say "Sport TKD", you said TKD. Dont be such a mook.
  5. BFGalbraith is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/04/2008 7:07pm


     Style: Tai Chi, Jujitsu, knife

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Two things here.

    1) Logic Epic Fail. TKD is considered a TMA. Wallace has made his living off of TMA's. Of course he isnt going to trash them.

    2) Have you ever competed in a TKD point sparring match? Wallaces kicking strategy isnt practical for that. Two or three kicks to the head at once=not practical.


    In other words, you have a big fucking mouth.

    You didnt say "Sport TKD", you said TKD. Dont be such a mook.
    Oh, OK, I forgot what an amazing martial art Sport TKD has become. Errr... oh, wait, or was it that they always did spar with this rule set since the 1960's?

    IF Wallace was such an pioneer in the martial arts, and the world owes his such a big debt of gratitude, where is his non-point-fighting kicks, leg kicks or otherwise?

    Yes, I have personally experienced the difference between TKD and point sparring, as I personally did both in late 80's, and as far as kicking technique goes, they are both doing the same thing: fencing with the lead leg, and then switching sides to fence with the other lead leg (occasionally throwing some acrobatic technique with the rear leg.)
    TKD:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJINTL2dGRA
    Point Fighting:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV8tx1ZdB-w
    & Wallace:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-bjRT3NQUI
    These 3 have related kicking technique (probably because of Shotokan roots,) different from normal kicking technique.

    Here's normal kicking technique from Asia:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAbYSXc_7-M
    And from Europe:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eca9UJLjpd0

    The only full contact martial artist (outside of TKD) that got legitimacy from this kind of lead-leg-fencing kicking-technique and continues to promote this kind of technique as a full-contact strategy is Bill Wallace. You guys splitting hairs over just exactly which type of lead-leg kick-fencing just goes to show how much in the same school of kicking point fighting and TKD actually are.
    Last edited by BFGalbraith; 4/04/2008 7:13pm at .
  6. superstud is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/04/2008 8:32pm


     Style: RBSD, brazilian ninjitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    bill wallace and joe lewis both suck balls. they were both trailer park champs. anybody who just came at them aggerssively could have beat their asses, but it never happened. hmmm. it must have been some sort of racket to keep guys with real athletic talent from competing with them. the organization must have beened owned and operated by these losers, norris included. theyre all douchebags, their fighting just cant compare to what goes on outside of their sphere. frauds.
  7. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2008 8:56am

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BFGalbraith
    Oh, OK, I forgot what an amazing martial art Sport TKD has become. Errr... oh, wait, or was it that they always did spar with this rule set since the 1960's?
    Dont be a dumbass. Err...oh wait...to late.

    IF Wallace was such an pioneer in the martial arts, and the world owes his such a big debt of gratitude, where is his non-point-fighting kicks, leg kicks or otherwise?
    I didnt say that we owe him a debt of gratitude, nor did I say that he was a pioneer. You did.
    You said that he was the one who influenced Sport TKD. I disagreed.

    Yes, I have personally experienced the difference between TKD and point sparring, as I personally did both in late 80's, and as far as kicking technique goes, they are both doing the same thing: fencing with the lead leg, and then switching sides to fence with the other lead leg (occasionally throwing some acrobatic technique with the rear leg.)
    Fail again.

    SPORT TKD is based on speed. Therfore the lead leg strategy. Just because Bill used his lead leg primarily doesnt mean he influenced SPORT TKD in any way.
    The two have no correlation.

    Bill is a bitter old man who time has passed by. He should just realise that his 15 minutes are long gone.
  8. BFGalbraith is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/06/2008 1:07pm


     Style: Tai Chi, Jujitsu, knife

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Best of the Worst: TKD > Point Fighting?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldman34
    Dont be a dumbass. Err...oh wait...to late.

    SPORT TKD is based on speed. Therfore the lead leg strategy. Just because Bill used his lead leg primarily doesnt mean he influenced SPORT TKD in any way.
    The two have no correlation.
    TKD Before Wallace:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oWCFCoQpZ8

    TKD After Wallace:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A69tR66qIc
    Let's not ignore obvious functional fact that the crap Wallace professes is now only practiced "full contact" by the TKD community. Even if Wallace had no influence on TKD (which seems extremely unlikely based on any evidence I can find,) Wallace's technique is now promoted by the no-leg-kicks rule set of TKD.

    But there is hope for TKD (obviously not every Olympic gold medalist is a Wallace clone,) but this salvation has everything to do with ditching the current TKD rule sets:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IBKwQybvvc

    Notice that not only the lead-leg Wallace behavior is corrected in the above example, but also the sideways fencing stance as well. You can get lead leg speed out of a Savate/Muay Thai/Sanda/you-name-it-indigenous-kickboxing-system/knock-down-karate kick. In a post-Wallace world, Wallace kicks happen when leg kicks aren't allowed.
    Last edited by BFGalbraith; 4/06/2008 1:10pm at .
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/06/2008 1:19pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Really? Really Really?

    You are looking for things that you want to find. There is a teacher that does TKD in Cali that supposedly invented the lead leg kick for point sparring tourneys.


    Yes, before Bill's rise to fame or infamy.

    Actually, I can name about 4 TKDers doing this before Wallace. I wouldn't be surprised if he took it from them.
  10. HonkyTonkMan is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/07/2008 6:12am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BFG....listen...you are making huge leaps here. Just because people started using lead leg kicks for point sparring doesnt mean that BW inspired them.
    You are making your "facts" (loosely used BTW) you prove your point, when the truth is, they are simply videos that might fit your agenda, yet offer no proof.

    There are many forms of TKD, and the art has been watered down considerably over the past few decades. This shift isnt due to BW.
    Are the videos you posted even the same "style" of TKD?
    Are they all ATA, ATF, ITF, UTA, CTO, WTF?
    Each of these organizations have their own sparring rule set.

    You havent made any direct links, such as the head of the Olympic TKD commitee or any OTKD instructor saying that they got the lead leg strategy that is now used from BW. Maybe a video of BW saying "Yes, I directly influenced the style of SPORT TKD lead leg kicking you now see in OTKD." Then have BW provide some evidence other than his "good word".

    You have also drifted way off topic. Try starting a new thread on this.

    Again....EPIC FAIL.
    Last edited by HonkyTonkMan; 4/07/2008 6:15am at .

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