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  1. Djimbe is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2003 5:36am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DBH :

    All I can say to a comment like that is that you have no Idea what youre talking about , and whatever "Voice" you are giving to the Typing Patterns that you see onscreen must be FAR removed from what I hear on a day-to-day basis . TF has more Friends , more Interpersonal Familial relationships , more of a "Community of Warmth" around her than I do . Im not talking about "Friends From Work" , either , but people that she can REALLY DEPEND ON in a Crisis , REAL , LIFELONG Relationships that have Meat to them , that have Backbone .

    In the Context of this Website , and moreso , in the Context of the Matt Thornton Issue , she was speaking as a Consumer Advocate , and as an Outraged Practitioner , and member of the Martial Community that felt she Smelled BULLSHIT . And Frankly , From Reading the posts of others , they seemed to have more of an Issue with the fact that she FLATLY STATED SO as Directly as she did , without Mincing Words , and they seemed to WANT to read a LOT into what she was saying that she Was VERY CLEARLY NOT . She thinks that his Business Practices are Slimy , and now , after Visiting his Seminar , I feel like an Idiot for not Agreeing with her MORE , and she is LAUGHING at me , and Rightly so , because EVERYTHING that she actually DID say about his Business Practices , and his "Message" versus his actual value as an Instructor , or the Value of his Programme was DEAD FUCKING ON . I DO NOT have the Martketing nor Business Background that TF has , but she was NOT Speaking about MA in her Thread . SHe was Speaking about MARKETING , and SALESMANSHIP , and TRUTH IN ADVERTISING . You have to understand that THESE are her areas - areas within the perview of which she has reached a levelk in her Career where she has been responsible for hundereds of Employees , and Multiple , Multimillion$ contracts with Multinational Corporations . When SShe saw his Videos , something in her work Experience made it smell of BULLSHIT to her . And in the End I have to admit that she called it DEAD ON . It was JUST as she said - He was Packagign Air , and selling it as if it were Substance . He didnt REALLY Believe in his "Aliveness Principles" because he thought that they could ONLY work for HIM , and CERTAIN systems that HE liked , and NO ONE ELSE (Yes , he DID say as much to my face - it appears that he thinks VERY Little of Vunak and Inosanto - OTHER JKD Gys - and thinks that their Programmes are "Dead") and if youre not doing what HE is youre not worth very much , if anything , unless youre Paying his Seminar Fee .

    Another Issue that is Closely connected that I tried to Raise was that of the Message that he Sends . The fact that he Broadcasts that certain Systems are "Bad" or whatever , and that when he does this hes NOT saying ANYTHING about Trainng With "Aiveness" , nor about the levels of McDojoism in a particular system - hes talking about the Martial Art , and the Science behind it . IF he WERENT ,then he would NEVER have said all that he said to me aboutSystems Superiority . He woyuld have saiod , Flatly "MY Aliveness Principles Can Fix ANY System" . IF he TRULY believed in them , and believed in the Story that hes selling , that is .

    In Stead , when I told him that we HAD Proof on Bullshido already of Wing Chun beating other MMA Systems in a MMA Context (I was specifically referring to Das Moose's Posts about his School) HE told me that I was Lying , that I had MADE IT UP , and that he wasnt Using Wing Chun , and that IF he was it "Was Going To Look Remarkably Like Kickboxing" which we all know it did NOT . I brought Up Shooter , and his being in MMA Competition and Winning , and he AGAIN Accused me of Fabricating , flatly stating that taijiquan would NEVER work against ANY "Modern Combative System" EVER . When we Offered to Provide him with PROOF somehow there was always some Excuse why he couldnt be bothered to see it , and he would State that ANY of the OTHER DOZEN EXAMPLES that I gave him either Never Happened , Didnt Exist , or That i was Flatly Lying . As Far as Im concerned , ANY person that REFUSES to Educate themselves on a Subject that they not only Speak on Regularly , but are NOTED for Speaking on is a Dishonourable person . Its your BUSINESS to know what it is youre talking about , and he FLATLY REFUSED to me ANY offer that I made to help him learn about what it was he publicly Castigates . From Links to threads on here , & other Web Just , to PERSONAL Instruction after his Seminar . In the end , the fact that he has Shown me is that he thinks that he knowsa all that there is to know , and that he has notheing Further to Learn about Fighting , and Fighting Systems . That he CANNOT be further Educated , because , basically , it wont stick any more Dollars in his Pocket . He said that he would ONLY say that you should check out a Particular school if asked Directly and Specifically , and when called on the fact that his BROADCAST statement hit MANY more people than would ever Email or Phone him , he said "I dont Care , Im not going to Change it" .

    In the end , he basically said to us that no matter HOW wrong he might have been , he was not going to EVER even LOOK at the REMOTE POSSIBILITY that he MIGHT be Mistaken about something in ANY way . And thats a person that you just cant have a Conversation with , MUCH LESS resolve any kind of Dispute .

    I , Personally went in there FULLY prepared to learn something New , and to be shown that his Training methodologies were above Par . Thats not what I saw . I saw a Decent MA Lesson (But my no means "Great" or even , sadly "Good") That I couldnt call a McDojo by ANY means , but ALL that it was was a VERY Rudimentary lesson that ANY BJJ Blue Belt could have Given , and chances are even Money better than the quality of Teaching that I saw . There were No Corrections , just a Demo , then a "Go At it" and a lot of walking about and Nodding . It was ADEQUATE Teaching , and NOTHING more . Well , exepting the fact that he worked the Phrase "Alive" and "With This Alive Training That Were Doing" into ea BJJ lesson in every Conceivable way .
  2. Djimbe is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2003 5:58am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Osiris
    At no point was a direct challenge issued, but there was an implied challenge both issued and accepted. Bragging about your mans size and posting pics is a challenge in my eyes. Thats just one instance that I can recall.
    Osiris this is a GROSS Misrepresentation of the Facts .

    TF said what she had to say about Thornton and his Business Practices .

    She was Talking about his Business Practces and nothing more .

    Then HE is the one that made it a Physical Challenge , because he couldnt take/rebut Proffessional Criticism/attacks , when he said "Ill Bet You Wont Say That To My Face" . He was Implying that she WAS afraid of him , AND that she had REASON to Fear him . It was a Threat , it was MEANT as a Threat , and EVERY time its EVER been said in MY life experience it has been Said Threateningly .

    She Posted MY Pic for Two Reasons . 1) to show that it MAY be easy to pick on a WOMAN and Intimidate her (Which he DID Try , even when we showed up) but that she was NOT coming alone to get Jumped , and 2) to Identify WHOM was coming , as SHE has no Pics hosted Online .

    there NEVER WAS anything more to it than that , although you have made it ABUNDANTLY clear that you would LIKE there to have been .
    Last edited by Djimbe; 11/16/2003 6:03am at .
  3. SMF is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2003 6:07am


     Style: Delusional Idiocy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hmm I don't see how being a good fighter or teaching others to be better fighters can allow one to get away with anything in marketing.
  4. SMF is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2003 6:10am


     Style: Delusional Idiocy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Im starting to see it often. They churn out good fighters, but that dosn't mean his word is gospel, and what such words are used to give valuable martial arts a bad raputation the martial arts community can suffer.
  5. TigerFly is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2003 6:45am


     Style: Big Cans O' Whoopass!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by Osiris
    At no point was a direct challenge issued, but there was an implied challenge both issued and accepted. Bragging about your mans size and posting pics is a challenge in my eyes. Thats just one instance that I can recall.
    No offense - but your variation on the truth Osiris is so far off it is disturbing.

    MT Challenged me to come and say what I had on here to his face by saying: "You wouldn't say that to my face".

    I accepted by saying "I sure as **** will".

    You need to get through your thick skull that I may very well be ballsy - but I am not stupid. MT is a BB in BJJ - There is no fucking way that I would for two minutes let him think that I was going to show up there by myself.

    I posted Djimbe's picture for the exact two reasons he mentioned. So that MT knew that I accepted his little challenge but that he may as well prepare now to not be able to intimidate me (although he didn't get that message it seems) and so that we could be recognized when we showed.

    Please stop trying to rewrite history the way you would LIKE it to read.
  6. manchuria is offline

    lord of the glen

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2003 6:56am

    supporting member
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ok, flame war aside, is it just me reading this when im tired or hasnt the sparring been documented yet?
    CLICK THE ADDS ROMO!

    This chapter will also show clips from a high-speed video in which Master Bristol conceals a Swiss Army Knife inside his buttocks. -from "The Magicians Code" by Hans Bristol
  7. TigerFly is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2003 7:10am


     Style: Big Cans O' Whoopass!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by J-kid
    Well if you challenge people online, then expect to be called out....

    anyhow what happen between mt and djimbe
    ABsolutely nothing. Matt stayed as far away from Djimbe as he could. After we FINALLY got into the seminar - this was ridiculous it really was. You all saw what he posted about us being able to come to the seminar for free - he had NO intentions of allowing us to even observe. When he was finished with all of his sad attempts and physically intimidating Djimbe and after Djimbe put him on the spot about attending the seminar I guess he finally realized that if he turned us away it would hurt his image on this board.

    He put Djimbe with Louis (I thought this was ridiculous he indicated in the other thread that HE would work With Djimbe at the seminar - of course it is easy to talk **** when the track record for people showing up is Nill. He didn't expect us to show so he said we could attend for free - when it seems he didn't really have the authority it seems to do that - only the organizer did), who Djimbe worked with for about a half an hour (between trips to the bathroom with Diarrhea). Matt walked about pretending to watch all the other people in the seminar - but he barely took his eyes of Djimbe an Louis. It was interesting to watch.

    At first, It seemed like Matt thought that Djimbe was going to go after Louis. Djimbe met Louis' aggression/spped/strenght etc everytime. But Matt was waiting for it. You could tell he was prepared to help Louis if absolutely necessary - but you could also tell he didn't want to. Everytime Djimbe did something you don't see in BJJ regularly his eyes would widen, but the expression on his face would never change. THis happened atleast a half a dozen or more times. It is a good thing he has Louis to take over for him whenever he gets his panties in a wad like this. It makes me wonder if he runs the business or if someone else does it for him. I have never seen anyone succeed for very long in business with this kind of attitude. We'll see about that when the next catch phrase hits the MMA world and he is no longer riding "Aliveness".

    Anywho. While the participants of the seminar were drilling, Matt walked about pretending to watch - I never once saw him correct anyone he only nodded. When Louis walked about he did correct people - not everyone there was perfect. As an instructor I have to agree with Djimbe he really wasn't all that good. I would have something different to say if I had actually seen him make physical contact with ANYONE other than Louis during the semina and even then it was only to demonstrating, he didn't do anything "alive" - a few times I wondered if he was even AWAKE. He literally didn't touch another human being other than when he was trying to intimidate Djimbe and when he was showing the drills on Louis. But, you may find that normal, I come from a school where if you aren't doing it right the instructor will put his hands on you and SHOW you how to do it right. - our instuctor punched me in the boob Friday night showing me how something worked. I didn't see anything like that at this seminar. I have been to telephony seminars that were less boring.
  8. TigerFly is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2003 7:14am


     Style: Big Cans O' Whoopass!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by manchuria
    ok, flame war aside, is it just me reading this when im tired or hasnt the sparring been documented yet?
    you are tired. THERE WAS NO SPARRING AT THIS SEMINAR! We showed up with FULL gear ready to go - Djimbe Sick with a 102-3 fever and diarrhea and there was NO SPARRING. There was only Drills - nothing more. And MATT wasn't involved in any of the physical parts of the training. Louis Gutierrez was the only one that made any physical Contact with Djimbe. Louis said he was a Brown belt in BJJ.
  9. NSLightsOut is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2003 7:28am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Props for showing up. Not many people have the balls to tell people to their faces what they post over the comparative anonymity of the net.

    That being said, there are two sides to every argument, and I for one would like to hear the other side.

    TTT for Matt Thornton.
  10. Luis Gutierrez is offline

    Straight Blast Gym Instructor

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2003 9:46am


     Style: SBGi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hello everyone,


    This is Luis.


    I am currently in Pennsylvania and am typing from the bed & breakfast we are staying at. Suffice to say we are heading back in a few minutes for the second day of the seminar and I will post at length once I get back home tomorrow.

    The other side to this story is quite simple actually...very different and....we have a video.

    The video will show enough of what happened as to the physical and as to the verbal and written above....its a personal attack in my opinion that merits no good to anyone of us or the martial arts in general.

    All I ask for the time being is that this becomes less a personal conflict of person-alities and instead hopes to clarify things for all parties involved includeing those just reading this.

    I have to leave now but as I stated above, I will post at length and get the video clip up. In my experience all was good and much was learned but...if anyone feels otherwise, please do not make excuses or slight the truth any as I will not allow for any partial twist to take the light here but instead will state and show it for what it was in a clear and sincere format.

    Until then, keep in mind the nature of the posts above and all the others made in our direction. I do not find they merit any true heart or intention.

    Best to you all,


    -Luis


    www.onedragon.com
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