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  1. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2008 7:36am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, you know it won't rest the debate. You probably just ignited a new one.
  2. retrograde is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2008 8:26am


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Heh, sorry, it wasn't my intention. I was just trying to explain exactly what the WTF is - as some people don't seem to know - and point out the futility in trying to generalise about Kukkiwon-style clubs.
  3. Art is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2008 9:59am


     Style: TKD, wrestling, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kukkiwon is responsible for training instructors. They hold regular courses throughout the year for domestic instructors and they also hold courses for out of towners.

    The issue within the WTF/Kukki is that Kukkiwon has a set curriculum that schools must adhere to; however, they have yet to dictate a solid set of standards.
  4. retrograde is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2008 10:21am


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    They hold courses, but there is no requirement to attend (or if there is, they're not enforcing it, because I know loads of KKW head instructors who have never done one).

    But eh, I'm not really criticising the way its done (plenty of clubs have much better grading requirements and tests than those set out by the KKW), just saying the nature of it makes it hard to generalise about what people in the organisation are doing.
  5. TKDfan is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2008 12:04pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Tae Kwon Do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Actually, you know it won't rest the debate. You probably just ignited a new one.
    That he did.

    Kukkiwon is not a TKD governing body but rather a black belt certifying body and a rank registry. In order to compete at national/International level, you need a Kukkiwon certification. And to get that you must be submitted by a WTF affiliated instructor. You are right that certifications must be submitted by 4th Dan and up and the certifying instructor must be higher in rank by at least 1 Dan than the Aplicant.


    Kukkiwon does have instructor certifications. You must be 4th Dan to be eligible for an instructor certification (goes along with the 4th requirement above), and 1st through 3rd should never be considered more than assistant instructors.


    That said, does it work this way in the real world? certainly not. We all know that money hunger master instructors can get a kukkiwon cert for anyone with a big enough check. This however does not reflect upon the WTF, which is the governing body for Moo Duk Gwon TKD worldwide and for USA Taekwondo here. Any organization, even ATA, has it's good practitioners and also bad ones. If you wish to assess an organization, do so by the level of BS that it is willing to accept.
  6. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2008 12:21pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    MODS, please split discussion of the WTF/Gukgiwon away from the ATA FAQ. I am currently on my handheld.
  7. retrograde is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2008 12:37pm


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We're arguing the same point. All I'm saying is:

    a) It's incorrect to equate the WTF with the ATA, because they're not the same kind of organisation. Correct, the KKW isn't a governing body in the same way the ATA is either, but it's a better umbrella term for describing the style, because so many schools don't participate in WTF tournaments. Many schools aren't even certified with the Kukkiwon, but they practise the style of TKD promoted by the KKW, in much the same way not all practitioners of Chang Hon style TKD are certified with the ITF.

    b) That umbrella term encompasses a very broad range of clubs who do a broad range of activities. Beyond poomsae and sparring, my club ran a vastly different program and syllabus to the school one suburb along, and they ran a different syllabus to the other schools in the area.

    I'm not trying to debate the minutae of KKW bureaucracy. Just pointing out to the people who were asking or seemed confused about what 'WTF clubs' do that it's probably the wrong way to think about it, because you're dealing with a really broad range of schools, who often have very little in common besides doing the same form set and a piece of paper.
  8. DSL is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2008 3:32pm


     Style: MMA, BJJ, CMD, TKD, FMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good and accurate post retrograde, thanks.
  9. praetorian01 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2008 7:19am


     Style: many; box,TKD,croty,BJJ..

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is this thing about open organization with the WTF so it can be part of the olympic org. It means open to anyone from TKD I think- even ITF, ATA, ITA whathaveyou can go into a WTF tournaments no? Something like that anyways...They just need to be able to compete with WTF rules. How I understand it anyways.

    I know of an ATA guy that wants to do olympic competition so he has to go compete there and win at a high level WTF competition to get recognized first. No idea if they have to give KKW certification or what to get to the olympics(anyone know?). He is quite good, I hope he can do it.

    On the other hand ATA tournaments are closed except to card carrying members of the ATA or its affiliates WTTU (world traditional TKD union- Canada) or STF(songahm TKD federation- as in South America). Europe might have its own affiliate or fit into one of those for the ATA.

    This not to say that ATA'ers can't go to open tournaments or the like as any style that wants to and compete under that tournaments rule set.

    Another tidbit I heard was that lots of ATA's EGM Lee's (the founder) influence from his masters was close to Tang Soo Do. Lots of older forms were along the line of pinan forms (as in Shotokan and other Japenese karate). He was close to Gen. Choi as well. Now they have their own and look a lot different that other TKD in many ways- they are called Songahm forms.

    Lots more hand techniques in ATA, thay have also introduced elbows and knee strikes form other styles- right there in their forms but illegal in sparring competition.

    Both WTF and ATA are ofspring/influenced initially off Gen Choi it would seem.

    Good discussion guys- and thank Omega for showing you are a gentleman back there to keep things on track to this legit question. Not just a bash to both orgs. It is fair to say there is good and bad in all orgs for sure.
    Last edited by praetorian01; 4/11/2008 7:25am at .
  10. Art is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/11/2008 8:41am


     Style: TKD, wrestling, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by praetorian01
    There is this thing about open organization with the WTF so it can be part of the olympic org. It means open to anyone from TKD I think- even ITF, ATA, ITA whathaveyou can go into a WTF tournaments no? Something like that anyways...They just need to be able to compete with WTF rules. How I understand it anyways.

    I know of an ATA guy that wants to do olympic competition so he has to go compete there and win at a high level WTF competition to get recognized first. No idea if they have to give KKW certification or what to get to the olympics(anyone know?). He is quite good, I hope he can do it. . . .
    Well anyone can compete in the olympics but you must have a KKW dan certification and you must also win a number of international events in the qualifing years. The trick is to get into the regional level tournaments to work your way up. Since you're in Edmonton you are aware that our WTF governing body for the WTF side is the ATA (Alberta Taekwondo Association). To compete at events sponsored by the ATA (this ATA not the other ATA, am I losing anyone) you must be a member of an ATA gym in good standing. To compete at national events (Championships, team trials, carding) you must have your KKW certification, along with being signed off by the ATA president, among different qualifications for team trials and carding.

    Lots more hand techniques in ATA, thay have also introduced elbows and knee strikes form other styles- right there in their forms but illegal in sparring competition.
    WTF patterns (from KKW of course) contain multiple elbow strikes. First in the Taegeuk series is in the 5th pattern as an example. Palgwae series has elbow strikes in the seventh pattern and Yudanja series has elbow strikes throughout starting at Taebek I believe. I believe all sets of patterns predate the Songham series.

    Both WTF and ATA are ofspring/influenced initially off Gen Choi it would seem.
    No no no no and no. Gen choi is not the be all and end all of TKD . . . WTF spawned (along with the KKW) from the KTA which Choi was originally a member of but later resigned. He was also not soley responsible for the conception or development of the KTA so in reality his influence was very limited. In addition ATA (the crappy ATA not the above mentioned provincial ATA) has included WTF sparring rules in their competitions, so perhaps the WTF has in fact influenced the ATA . . . . but what do I know . . . .
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