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  1. G8 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 6:31pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hmm ... I'll take that as a "no," then
  2. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 6:37pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by G8
    any video of the "ballistic punch" being used in a clearly noncompliant setting? any vid of its power being scientifically measured, a la this (which measures my boxing trainer's conventional straight right at 1000 lbs of impact), or even of a ballistic punch being used to break boards, etc.? any vids that aren't more of the same old systema parlor trick bs?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGODdQABEsY
    If you watch pretty much any Systema clip that includes an improvised scenario, which is most of them, you'll probably see ballistic striking in action. The best examplars would be Ryabko, Vasiliev and the other senior guys. Obviously, they don't tend to strike full-force into potentially dangerous targets like the groin, throat or temples; when they do hit hard in practice, they will typically direct the strike to a less sensitive target like the chest or the shoulders.

    I haven't seen anything showing the effects of this type of striking mechanic using motion capture and computer animation, but really, there isn't much of an argument between what is shown in the clip you linked to and what was shown in the "ballistic striking" clip. In both cases, momentum is generated by the rear foot pressing into the floor, travels through the joints of the body and emerges as a solid punch. The difference is simply that between a linear punch and a circular punch, and the degree of muscular tension necessary to punch hard using either dynamic.

    Systema doesn't go in much for board-breaking, but there's footage of Vasiliev (IIRC) demonstrating wave strikes on focus mitts.
  3. G8 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 7:00pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    If you watch pretty much any Systema clip that includes an improvised scenario, which is most of them, you'll probably see ballistic striking in action. The best examplars would be Ryabko, Vasiliev and the other senior guys. Obviously, they don't tend to strike full-force into potentially dangerous targets like the groin, throat or temples; when they do hit hard in practice, they will typically direct the strike to a less sensitive target like the chest or the shoulders.
    as I said, I'm not interested in seeing any additional obviously (or even potentially) staged demonstrations with compliant partners/targets


    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    I haven't seen anything showing the effects of this type of striking mechanic using motion capture and computer animation, but really, there isn't much of an argument between what is shown in the clip you linked to and what was shown in the "ballistic striking" clip. In both cases, momentum is generated by the rear foot pressing into the floor, travels through the joints of the body and emerges as a solid punch. The difference is simply that between a linear punch and a circular punch, and the degree of muscular tension necessary to punch hard using either dynamic.
    I don't agree for a second with your analysis of the relative mechanics, but I'm not really interested in debating it. you're asserting that "ballistic punching" can produce strike forces on the order of those produced by conventional boxing punches. if that's the case, let's see some clear, objective visual evidence--not anecdotal evidence, not pseudo-physics circumlocution, not staged video involving a compliant target. if it works, that should be no problem at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Systema doesn't go in much for board-breaking, but there's footage of Vasiliev (IIRC) demonstrating wave strikes on focus mitts.
    I'm not much for board-breaking either, but at least it'd demonstrate a certain base-line level of power; focus mitt strikes obviously don't.
  4. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Injury Waiting To Happen

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 7:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry, Crack - am I using too many big words?
    Dude, if you're using a "dead arm swing" to knock people over, then as soon as you hit someone with solid base and any sort of defensive posture, one of two things will happen:

    1) Absolutely nothing

    OR

    2) Your arm hyperextends at the elbow
  5. ADM is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 7:46pm


     Style: Kyokushin Karate / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm siding with G8 (and to a large exctent Crackys last post).

    Firstly are there any videos showing the effectiveness of this type of punching on a non-compliant person, for example some full contact tournament match?

    I'm not sold on the idea, it just seems like it wouldn't work (much like a 1 inch punch).
  6. HANKtheTANK is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 10:13pm


     Style: Systema & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IMO the ballistic striking is more appropriately used for people like LEO's.

    As a doorman, I tend to try to 'verbal judo' my way out of most scenarios, and it works well for me 80% of the time I'd say.

    But when it doesnt work, 'verbal judo' would at least help me get into the other guys' personal space. I can enter that space by being passive and non-confrontational - just want to talk type of deal. But while closing the distance, the lack of chambering necessary will give me the opportunity to deliver an effective strike and then a take down. This is where i see its effectiveness for me.

    If the guy squares off with me, and has his guard up ready to fight. Well, from my POV, i went wrong somewhere in the process way before this stand off happened and I will obviously take a different course of action.

    just trying to illustrate what i find useful about it.

    Also consider this, in my line of work, I have to be very careful of what the public sees. If i am chambering my strikes beforehand and swing away, chances are, I could be in cuffs before the end of the night.
    So subtlety goes a long way in the public eye

    as to the topic of training to relax.
    without going into details (because there's plenty of posts in other threads about it) our breathing exercises, which i do think is unique to systema, aids this.

    as for cracky and the dead arm thing. Systema may not be known for weight training, and big muscular lookin athletic ppl. But I assure you, the attention paid to strengthening tendons and ligaments is insane every class.
    everything from static push ups, slow push ups, slow/static squats, u name it

    anyway, back to work...
  7. FriendlyFire is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 10:21pm


     Style: Boxing/MMA (Ex. Shotokan)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Vieux Normand: My bad, it sounded to me like you implied some special training, I meant that it is just a natural occurance.

    DdLR: Good explanation, now we know.
  8. aaaargh is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 10:39pm


     Style: Inept BJJer

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To restate the obvious, if this were a valid way to generate powerful punches, there would be some competitive athlete somewhere who would use it. Hell, maybe even two or three.

    Unless, of course, the hegemonic priesthood suppressed it all.
  9. SFGOON is offline
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    and humble, too!

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 10:41pm


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Any Soviet trained boxer (or any eastern-bloc athlete, for that matter) uses similliar techniques, they just have different names for it.

    Val what's his face, the guy in the OP's video, is a proven liar and systema villiage idiot. Do not listen to him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    You sound like a foaming-at-the-mouth-loon out of Dr. Strangelove.
    Sometimes, we put Ricin in the Cocaine. :ninja7:
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 11:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by HANKtheTANK
    IMO the ballistic striking is more appropriately used for people like LEO's.

    As a doorman, I tend to try to 'verbal judo' my way out of most scenarios, and it works well for me 80% of the time I'd say.

    But when it doesnt work, 'verbal judo' would at least help me get into the other guys' personal space. I can enter that space by being passive and non-confrontational - just want to talk type of deal. But while closing the distance, the lack of chambering necessary will give me the opportunity to deliver an effective strike and then a take down. This is where i see its effectiveness for me.

    If the guy squares off with me, and has his guard up ready to fight. Well, from my POV, i went wrong somewhere in the process way before this stand off happened and I will obviously take a different course of action.

    just trying to illustrate what i find useful about it.

    Also consider this, in my line of work, I have to be very careful of what the public sees. If i am chambering my strikes beforehand and swing away, chances are, I could be in cuffs before the end of the night.
    So subtlety goes a long way in the public eye
    Bingo, and like I said, I think the reason why Systema favors this type of striking goes back to the days when it was being used by bodyguards (and more sinister types) on behalf of the Soviet Union. It's visually subtle and it works best as a sucker punch.

    To be fair to Riazanov, he did make that point quite clearly in the OP clip; a punch delivered ata greater distance, from a tense, obvious fighting stance is more easily perceived.
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