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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 3:38pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TomMack
    I did notice for the second hit the fall guy , didn't get any warning . So I should do a demo and just nail somebody with a hook to the body out of nowhere and claim I invented some new super duper mechanics

    Tom Mac
    Like I said:

    Riazanov doesn't give him time to prep, which is part of the point; the "ballistic strike" doesn't require a dramatic wind-up or chamber. Thus, without the split-second warning to deflect the punch, the fall guy takes the full brunt of it.
    The mechanics (relaxed arm, etc.) are what allow for an effective sucker punch (no need to chamber or do a big prep). That's exactly what Riazanov is saying to the karate instructor, whose chambered punch and distance gives the other guy time to prepare to receive the strike.
  2. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 4:03pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Deep, deep sigh ...

    Ah, it's OK. When I first came across Systema I wrote it off too, because of what looked like Jedi mind-trick Yellow Bamboo BS. Then I started looking into it seriously and realized that I'd been wrong. Sine then, one of my hobbies on BSD has been explaining "what's going on in Systema clips". Here we go:

    The clip shows Mikhail Ryabko in a series of contexts, sometimes demonstrating body mechanics, more often running a student through a drill, which is not intended as a demo, as in "look at the awesome power of Ryabko and his magic Systema" - it's a training drill for the student's benefit.

    Some of the drills involve the student training to avoid contact with Ryabko's hand, which for training purposes represents a generic "attack" (a punch, knife, whatever). So, Ryabko sweeps his hand down at the student's thigh; the student responds by kicking his leg backwards to avoid contact , turning over into a roll. Or, Ryabko thrusts his palm slowly towards the student's chest; the student folds backwards at the same speed to avoid contact.

    Shown out of context, these movement/sensitivity exercises create the illusion of telekinetic strikes and takedowns, but that is overtly not what is being practiced. If you watch the instructional DVDs or just show up at a seminar, you'll see these same drills explained in common-sense, non-magical terms.

    Some of the other shots in this clip show the power of suggestion (feints, psych-outs etc.) which is a Systema specialty. Mikhail Ryabko has a mischievous sense of humor and he hits like a Mack truck, and part of the training is to learn to deal with that; in a typical Systema class you will get hit hard and often, especially with bare fists. As a survival mechanism, students develop a highly refined sense of "get the hell out of the way".

    The last sequence in the clip shows Ryabko working with a student who doesn't want to get hit any more. The last moment, where the student is down on all fours, is pure psych-out; Ryabko, who obviously knows what's about to happen, raises his palm and yells, so the student reflexively flattens out like a lizard to avoid whatever's coming his way. Simultaneously, Rybako gestures sharply downward with his palm, creating the illusion that he's pushed the student without touching him.

    Believe it or not, once you've seen these drills explained and practiced in context, they make perfect non-mystical sense. Incidentally, the instructors that I've spoke with will readily acknowledge that they wouldn't rely on this sort of extreme psych-out in a real attack situation; it's just an interesting phenomenon that can be exploited in various ways.
    OK my brother, I tried, I really tried to watch that video again and keep in mind what you wrote. It just makes no sense. They are not just getting out of the way or going into a roll. They are pantomiming being hit and exaggerating the force of the attacks. The reason they are doing so appears to me to be to give the impression that the attacker has abilities that he actually does not possess. If you like it and it's working for you more power to you but it doesn't look like it's for me. I'll try to keep an open mind and if I get a chance to see or experience it first hand I'll report back.
  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 4:24pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No problem. IMO keeping an open mind and looking for first-hand experience is the best policy, if you're interested enough to go beyond just watching YouTube clips.

    It's worth noting again that a "highlights" clip like this one is divorced of context. In 41 seconds of footage there are 20 individual shots, presumably edited together out of a day-long seminar. If you were at the seminar, you'd hear the explanations as to why a particular drill is being done, which specific skill it's intended to train, etc.

    I should add for the sake of completeness that a lot of Systema exercises are framed as "challenges", as in, "try to keep ahold of this stick as long as you can", "try to get close to the instructor without getting hit", "try to move in the direction of the instructor's movement", etc. In other words, what can read as unrealistic compliancy is quite often the entire point of the exercise; the student is training his body to be very loose and responsive.

    If you watch an exercise that that without understanding the context, such as mistaking a movement training exercise for a technique demonstration, it will inevitably look ridiculous and unrealistic. IMO this is the source of a great deal of the online Systema controversy.
  4. Staszek_Kapusta is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 4:29pm


     Style: smoking cigarettes

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Ilmu Batin is an indonesian malay word"
    I think it's arabic word, or should I write - two words, standing for "Hidden Science", "Secret Science", "Internal Science" or something like that. In other words - some crap.
  5. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 4:31pm

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     Style: Snatch Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DDLR
    You'd be amazed at how hard that floppy arm can hit. You would be amazed.
  6. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 4:36pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry, Crack - am I using too many big words?
  7. FriendlyFire is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 4:59pm


     Style: Boxing/MMA (Ex. Shotokan)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Vieux Normand just explained it for you ... (?)
    Nothing personal to him, he never claimed to be right, but that is wrong. The effect does happen, but not in that way. Whenever you learn a new action, it is at first stiff and awkward, party because of your own muscle resistance. But as you practice any movement your body learns what to do (Muscle memory) and smoothes the action out. Simply improving the neuromuscular control can increase speed/strength without any muscle training, it has been tested.

    Regardless, this is nothing unique to systema, in fact you can't even 'train' it beyond reminding students to relax. Repeating an action will cause it to happen, but if they claim to have any special secret in that area, they are lying. But we are getting ahead of ourselves because they didn't mention any of this, it was just speculation by some guy.
  8. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 5:18pm

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     Style: 血鷲

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    FriendlyFire wrote: "The effect does happen, but not in that way."

    In what way? I supposed at an apparent end result, but made no guess at how it had been arrived at.

    So basically, training the motor units allows for relaxation and less muscular resistance.

    The difference between what you're describing and what I described is...?
    Last edited by Vieux Normand; 3/19/2008 5:26pm at .
  9. G8 is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 5:31pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    any video of the "ballistic punch" being used in a clearly noncompliant setting? any vid of its power being scientifically measured, a la this (which measures my boxing trainer's conventional straight right at 1000 lbs of impact), or even of a ballistic punch being used to break boards, etc.? any vids that aren't more of the same old systema parlor trick bs?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGODdQABEsY
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/19/2008 5:42pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nothing personal to him, he never claimed to be right, but that is wrong. The effect does happen, but not in that way. Whenever you learn a new action, it is at first stiff and awkward, party because of your own muscle resistance. But as you practice any movement your body learns what to do (Muscle memory) and smoothes the action out. Simply improving the neuromuscular control can increase speed/strength without any muscle training, it has been tested.

    Regardless, this is nothing unique to systema, in fact you can't even 'train' it beyond reminding students to relax. Repeating an action will cause it to happen, but if they claim to have any special secret in that area, they are lying. But we are getting ahead of ourselves because they didn't mention any of this, it was just speculation by some guy.
    We are getting ahead of ourselves, and you're mostly on the ball, but you're confusing two related but distinct phenomena.

    Yes, when people are earning a new physical skill they often apply way too much muscular tension, which will naturally reduce as they become more proficient. Let's take a left jab as an example; a raw beginner may tense their bicep at the beginning on the punch and keep it tense all the way through, which is actually counter-productive because it means the tricep has to work harder than it needs to in order to extend the punch. Same applies to other muscle groups. With more training, the boxer learns to relax certain groups and their punch speeds up and becomes more efficient.

    However, the mechanics of a jab or cross are distinct from those of the so-called "ballistic strike", which is also referred to as a wave strike, a whip strike, etc. Linear punches work by aligning the skeleton behind the strike, which allows an efficient transfer of body weight into momentum (supported and directed by muscular tension and extension). Ballistic strikes operate by allowing both flexors and extensors to remain relaxed, as Vieux Normand explained; the arm (assuming we're still talking about punching) is effectively a dead weight, unsupported by the muscular tension required to maintain linear skeletal alignment. It's like a medieval ball-and-chain, as opposed to a battering ram.

    The intermediary step would be something like a shovel hook, the main difference being that a hook is typically thrown with enough tension to retain skeletal alignment (i.e., to get the weight of the body more-or-less directly behind the punch) whereas the ballistic version is thrown with very little tension, the power being generated by a weight shift from foot to foot and delivered by a "dead arm" swing.

    Frankly, both methods - the more orthodox, tension and alignment-based punch,and the ballistic punch - generate serious power. The ballistic punch doesn't require as much of a chamber and is optimized for sucker punch scenarios, which is (IMO) probably why it was originally favored in Systema (re. the historical connection between Systema and executive protection work).
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