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  1. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/12/2010 3:37pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by alexmw106 View Post
    Ye i was born in england and i speak english.
    No, you do not.
  2. Dargentus is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/12/2010 5:59pm


     Style: Kyokushin, MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by alexmw106 View Post
    Let me translate, the boxer is saying hit me by waving his face with his hands down. The other guy reply with a few punches but misses as silva is quick. Then silva strikes right in the jaw and takes him out.

    Ye i was born in england and i speak english.

    Just have sun fun... cool video
    You probably were.

    You definitely don't.

    Lurk more dude and don't post again until you've bought one of these;


    Oh and welcome to bullshido!
  3. pokeroo is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 12:08pm


     Style: mma

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, I just read through all 19 pages and started reading whiteshark's thread. I am by no means an expert in MA. This is what I see in systema:

    regarding whiteshark's other article that questions whether systema tries to teach "advanced" techniques that other MAs don't emphasize... i.e. teaching to turn away from a punch while being struck and counter punch... There is a reason for this. It seems to me like those skills are skills learned from experience and rather difficult to teach. This could be why Ddlr has been saying that generally people with other MA experience excel at systema.

    As for systema taking 10 years to be able to fight well... why would you join a martial art that takes that long to prove its self? That is not practical for self defense, or military purposes, or any other purpose I can think of.

    As for systema being a style, I fail to see it teaching any basics of fighting in its videos. It seems like systema is a set of training drills more than any kind of style. Sure it has a few unique techniques, but for the most part it appears to not be giving anyone a solid foundation, which could also be part of the reason that those with other MA's do better in it.

    By the way, if anyone wants to see the "ballistic punch" in the cage its in this video at about 1:36. Also there are some ghost knees, and a strike that injures koscheck's eye without even touching it! YouTube- Josh Koscheck Vs Paul Daley Dog Fight
  4. Kovacs is online now
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 2:29pm


     Style: 5x5, 5.56mm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I still don't buy Systema, it's just looks, sounds and feels like the Chun or Krav but from
    another country.
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 3:19pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pokeroo View Post

    regarding whiteshark's other article that questions whether systema tries to teach "advanced" techniques that other MAs don't emphasize... i.e. teaching to turn away from a punch while being struck and counter punch... There is a reason for this. It seems to me like those skills are skills learned from experience and rather difficult to teach. This could be why Ddlr has been saying that generally people with other MA experience excel at systema.
    They can be difficult to teach if you're following the orthodox progression of technique/drill/sparring. Systema is more like drill/sparring, concentrating on the skill-sets (such as relaxation, posture/position, the ability to improvise) over technique.

    IMO the main reason why people who already have considerable (and diverse) MA training excel in Systema is because the system was designed as a "think and move outside the box" training/skills maintenance program for experienced fighters. I also think that it would benefit from a more structured approach to getting beginners up to speed.

    As for systema taking 10 years to be able to fight well... why would you join a martial art that takes that long to prove its self? That is not practical for self defense, or military purposes, or any other purpose I can think of.
    Where did the ten years reference come from?

    As for systema being a style, I fail to see it teaching any basics of fighting in its videos. It seems like systema is a set of training drills more than any kind of style. Sure it has a few unique techniques, but for the most part it appears to not be giving anyone a solid foundation, which could also be part of the reason that those with other MA's do better in it.
    Yes, it is a set of training drills. Whether you want to call it a style or not depends on whether you can conceive of a style as being something other than a set of techniques.
  6. Nicko1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 5:45pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    For the sake of clarity, I'm not a bit surprised that people with limited/no prior MA or fighting experience can't apply Systema in fully resistant sparring situations after a year, or even two years. Three to five years is getting more solid, ten years should be fine.
    The ten year claim.

    FWIW I can only repeat my own opinion that Systema is intended as (and works best as) a post-graduate level training and practice method. Starting from scratch, I think you'd develop very solid fighting skills via this form of training, but that it would take longer than would training in more orthodox technique-based style, with the obvious exceptions of gifted athletes, people who train like maniacs, etc.
    I would like to take this opportunity to unveil to the world my new system of driver education: "Kinetic Driving". I gaurantee that any competitive race driver who participates in my playstation-based program will be able to pass their driver's test.
  7. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 6:02pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just to weigh in, originally Systema was claimed to be the creation of Stepsnaz. If this is still said to be the case, the 10 year waiting period would essentially make this art useless to Spetsnaz.
    =================
    Kama Sutra blue belt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    I used to **** guys like you in prison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
    Dude I kill people for a fucking living.

    Dipshit
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 6:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    The ten year claim.
    More of an estimate than a claim. Again, I think that if the Systema brass were to develop a more structured approach to training newbs, the whole process would speed up a lot.

    I would like to take this opportunity to unveil to the world my new system of driver education: "Kinetic Driving". I gaurantee that any competitive race driver who participates in my playstation-based program will be able to pass their driver's test.
    Good luck with that.
  9. Nicko1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 9:41pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    More of an estimate than a claim. Again, I think that if the Systema brass were to develop a more structured approach to training newbs, the whole process would speed up a lot.
    It is not so much structure that systema is lacking, as (wait for it, wait for it...) aliveness. Until someone has an effective delivery system for their techniques, they will not be able to use them. Aliveness is the quickest and most reliable way for a student to develop such a delivery system.

    Good luck with that.
    Thanks.

    I know I set up a bit of a straw man with my analogy, but I wanted to illustrate that the sort of reasoning that you are applying would not be taken seriously in any other field. Accepting people into your system who already posess a skill, then claiming that the system imparted that skill (or even that the skill was improved in the absence of evidence) is an unusual line of reasoning to say the least.

    The idea that systema is some sort of "postgraduate" MA system is actually quite interesting. It only really holds water though if systema instructors are turning away students who cannot already fight. A postgraduate degree has the successful completion of undergraduate studies as a necessary prerequisite.
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2010 9:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    It is not so much structure that systema is lacking, as (wait for it, wait for it...) aliveness. Until someone has an effective delivery system for their techniques, they will not be able to use them. Aliveness is the quickest and most reliable way for a student to develop such a delivery system.
    Well, I'll grant that it's possible that you're qualified to lecture me on that subject. On the other hand, I suspect that my 3+ decades of MA training (including lots of lively stuff) tips the odds in my favor.

    I know I set up a bit of a straw man with my analogy, but I wanted to illustrate that the sort of reasoning that you are applying would not be taken seriously in any other field. Accepting people into your system who already posess a skill, then claiming that the system imparted that skill (or even that the skill was improved in the absence of evidence) is an unusual line of reasoning to say the least.

    The idea that systema is some sort of "postgraduate" MA system is actually quite interesting. It only really holds water though if systema instructors are turning away students who cannot already fight. A postgraduate degree has the successful completion of undergraduate studies as a necessary prerequisite.
    Go back and read the reasoning through again, especially vis-a-vis what is actually claimed, the remarks I've noted as being my own opinions, etc. Try not to read any more into it than is actually there. I'm game if you really want to get into this, though it's going over very old ground.

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