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  1. NJM is offline
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    Putting the "ow" back in "flowery technique"

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2008 3:08pm


     Style: CMA, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    The formation of modern TKD

    Modern TKD originated mostly from karate, right? I'm trying to find sources outside of bullshido on the subject.

    I'm bringing it up because I ran into a guy who believes that WTF and ITF Taekwondo is directly descended from 2000 year old korean martial arts. Wikipedia's sources weren't good enough to disprove this for the poor fool, so I was hoping you guys might have some links/material saved.
    Last edited by NJM; 3/16/2008 3:31pm at .
  2. TNMP is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2008 9:41pm


     Style: taekkyon, judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    maybe this?

    not too helpful, sorry
  3. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2008 10:27pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NJM
    Modern TKD originated mostly from karate, right? I'm trying to find sources outside of bullshido on the subject.

    I'm bringing it up because I ran into a guy who believes that WTF and ITF Taekwondo is directly descended from 2000 year old korean martial arts. Wikipedia's sources weren't good enough to disprove this for the poor fool, so I was hoping you guys might have some links/material saved.
    The tooth fairy is real too.
  4. DSL is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2008 1:29am


     Style: MMA, BJJ, CMD, TKD, FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Easiest thing I would say would be research Chung Do Kwan's original Kwanjanghim, he got his black belt from Gichin Funakoshi (Shotokan founder). There was at least 1-2 more as well that did the same. General Choi claimed a 2nd in Shotokan, but I don't know if that was ever verified.
    But yeah, the 2000 year history is bs. I mean Korea's been there for 2000 years, but TKD was formed in what, 1955? Before that there was Kong Su Do, etc etc.

    The name was just a banner they flew up to put a name to the 'Korean' Martial art. Pushed through, largely due to General Choi's political influence.

    It's actually been mentioned lately (no link sorry, yeah heresay and all that ;p), the hook kicks etc, come from a Filipino martial art. Wouldn't surprise me, I know their Kickboxing style (The name escapes me) has a 'Scorpion Kick' that I've done in TKD before.

    So yeah, they also have stick fighting (Escrima anyone?), Kamas (Ssahn Nat), etc etc. Name a Chinese TMA weapon and there's a Korean variant, usually the same with Japanese ones. All invented by the Koreans of course...
  5. retrograde is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/17/2008 11:41am


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Kang & Lee article linked above is pretty good. For something a bit easier to read and understand, another good article is called 'The Evolution of Taekwondo from Japanese Karate' in this book - I can't vouch for the rest of the book, but the article in question is a well-researched and lucid history of the early years and a lot of the content is based on first-hand interviews.

    The other thing you can do is just find an old Korean instructor who was training back in the 1960s. Whilst they're generally not waving a banner about the Japanese history of what they're doing, I've found most are quite happy to acknowledge and discuss history accurately in general conversation. Most have some good stories, too.

    For a quick recap off the top of my head, though - yes, TKD developed from karate. Mostly Shotokan and Shudokan and one guy also did Shito-Ryu. The head of the moodukkwan, Hwang Kee, claimed to have studied some sort of kung fu, but I don't believe there's any proof and many people are pretty skeptical about this claim. Yoon Buyng In, who founded the YMCA Kwonbop bu, also apparently learned some CMA as a kid, and although I've never encountered anyone questioning it (though this could just be because he was less of a contentious figure than Hwang Kee), I haven't read any accounts that it influenced the karate he taught. General Choi also claimed to have studied Taekkyon, but again, there's no evidence and I don't think the claim is generally given much credibility.

    But don't be too hard on your friend. The overwhelming majority of taekwondo instructors and practitioners believe some variant of the '20-bajillion-year-old ancient Korean martial art' story. The South Korean government and the WTF put a lot of effort into spreading this [mis]information, while the ITF put a lot of effort into promoting the personality cult of Choi and the idea that he created TKD (although they at least acknowledge SOME karate connection). I don't think TOO many people are deliberately spreading false information, most people just don't care very much and haven't researched it themselves.
  6. ZenOfAnger is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/20/2008 10:47pm


     Style: Judo+soon 2b bjj,boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DSL
    I know their Kickboxing style (The name escapes me) ....


    I believe it is called kyeok too ki. There's some vids on youtube about it (no suprise).
  7. DSL is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2008 12:25am


     Style: MMA, BJJ, CMD, TKD, FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yaw yan actually, just found the thread (google-fu is better than the search function for me ;p).

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...t=64669&page=3
  8. DSL is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2008 12:27am


     Style: MMA, BJJ, CMD, TKD, FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenOfAnger
    I believe it is called kyeok too ki. There's some vids on youtube about it (no suprise).
    Kyeok tuki sounds very Korean though, Kyeok P'ah, is destruction/breaking (I have a tat of that on one of my quads ;).
  9. Henshin-a-gogo is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2008 4:17am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    why is the claim that general choi studied taekkyon not generally credited?
    Last edited by Henshin-a-gogo; 3/21/2008 4:25am at .
  10. retrograde is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2008 8:12am


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Read exile's first two posts on this MT page for a better answer than I could give.

    To summarise, though:

    1. No one has been able to find proof that his Taekkyon/calligraphy teacher ever existed, and he was not known by any of the other Taekkyon practitioners in Seoul (of which were very few).

    2. Chang Hon Taekwondo is simply nothing like Taekkyon. Although modern Taekkyon isn't the same as what it once was - and there isn't much info on what that was, although the research there is still indicates it was nothing like taekwondo - it looks nothing like that, either. What it DOES look like is the taekwondo taught by all the other kwans, which was developed from karate.
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