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  1. prezbuluskey is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2008 2:49pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kicking Bulimia Victims

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Advice on a lifting detriment

    I need to start getting into strength training, but I have a problem that hinders my enthusiasm. I'm not asking for a routine, thats what Starting Strength will be for.

    Between work and BJJ, I only have three possible days I can lift, Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. My question is, if I just do these days a week, with BJJ on Saturday and Sunday (1:00-3:30), will I get good results?

    Thanks.
  2. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2008 3:20pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It all depends on what we understand as 'good results' If done intelligently, a once a week full-body lifting workout will yield decent results in strenght and/or size (depending on what you want.)

    Look at it this way, you'll get more results lifting once a week than not lifting at all.

    Having said that, the idea of lifting on Saturdays and Sundays, on the same days you do BJJ, that could lead to over training. Remember that you have to work on weekdays. You can deplete the **** out of your body on weekends and expect to function well during weekdays.

    I'd suggest a full-body workout (60-90 minutes) on Mondays to be a good compromise. Also, notice that you don't really need to have a complete lifting workout every time you decide to workout (besides what you do in your BJJ classes).

    15 to 30 minutes a day would do just fine (and which could easily be done on the same days you do BJJ, perhaps as a post-class workout).

    Short, brief and yet intense workouts are something covered by Ross Enamait in his boosk 'Infinite Intensity' and 'Never Gymless'. For example (one of the many one could think of), upper body can start with a few sets of push ups for warm up followed by a few sets of overhead presses, bench presses, plyo push ups, whatever.

    A lot of times we fail to get a workout because we find we cannot schedule the minimum 60 to 90 minutes required to go to the gym. But that should not preclude to do a focused 10-15 minute workout at home.

    Long story short: Even a single full-body workout will yield benefits, and one can accumulate lifting time by doing short workouts during the week. The important thing is not just how much time one can allote in a single workout, but how much time of intense, focused workout is accumulated in a given week/number of days.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  3. prezbuluskey is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2008 3:42pm

    Bullshido Newbie
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alright I understand, so if I do a push/pull/leg workout on a monday, that will yield some increase in strength? If not, can you recommend something? Thanks a lot man.
  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2008 8:33pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First question: yes. If you eat well, lift hard and get sufficient rest, you will see an increase in strenght:

    Second question: A simple one-day-a-week plan COULD utilize the following exercises. This is all assuming you are new at lifting.

    upper body push -> bench presses, overhead presses, one-hand push ups.

    lower body pull -> chin ups/pull ups, barbell rows, one-hand dumbell rows, seated rows, power shrugs.

    lower body -> squats and/or deadlifts, lunges.


    Without counting warm ups, the routine would go as follows:

    3-4 sets of one upper body pull exercise, 8-12 reps per set, no more than a 2-minute break between set.

    3-4 sets of one upper body push exercise, 8-12 reps per set, no more than a 2-minute break between set.

    3-4 sets of one lower body exercise, no more than a 2-minute break between set. If using squats, # of reps are 8-12, if using deadlifts, no more than 8, if using lunges, between 12 and 20.

    Caveat: this is a very simple routine, could be worse, could be better. It should provide a simple starting point for a one-day-a-week full body workout, though.

    Also, check this thread when you get a chance: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61712
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  5. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2008 11:37pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A few things I would add to the above.

    1) There is a lot of sets and reps to do. That's not bad, but it might be a little time consuming to do them. From the sounds of it, you're already time crunched. The easiest thing to do to handle it would be superset things with rest equal to the time to switch stations.

    For example, take a set of dumbbells over to the bench. Set up for it. Do you're bench set, then stand up and do the rows with one of the dumbbells you brought over, then pick up the other dumbbell and do the lunges with the same weight as the rows (initially, this is usually pretty close, since you row with one dumbbell, then lunge with two). At the end of that, take the 2 minute rest recommended. Repeat for the three or four sets. This way, you give each major muscle group a 2.5 - 3 minute rest just like you would without supersetting, but you don't spend 9 minutes to do so. This will shave 30 + minutes off your time in the gym. This method over time will slightly reduce the total maximum strength gain a little. However, your cardio and strength endurance will improve a little faster and you'll get out of the gym sooner.

    You could easily do the same with overhead presses, squats, chin ups in a power rack using the power rack bar for the chin ups. Deadlifts I would do without Super Setting. Its exhausting enough, and there isn't a muscle group below the neck not getting some work - so its best just to do it alone. One armed pushups and seated rows would work well. You wouldn't have to ever worry about losing your station wandering from one to another if you combine it the way I recommneded, which is the biggest difficulty in supersetting in a crowded gym, since you would never actually leave the station.

    2) Don't start by doing the listed workout in its entirity. Do 1 of the pushes, two of the pulls, and one of the legs. Each week, add 1 more push, 2 more pulls and one more leg. On the upper body, I'm fairly agnostic on order. Lower body, I'd add squats, then deadlifts, then lunges. Deadlift is, IMO, the best single excercise to do. It works the most muscle mass - but in the above, you already are getting a pretty decent back and forearm workout, so squats is the better to start with.

    On a final note, as great as Starting Strength is, which you mentioned - if you only have one day a week to lift, I'd lean to trying Teh El Macho's recommendation and adjust from there (generally toward more weight, with less reps per set over time) than the Starting Strength program. I'd still get the manual for the technical info, but the program in it is predicated on a three day a week lift cycle with a a day off in between.

    If you can't do that, you are better of with something like TEM listed above than sort of doing Starting Strength. Doing a program altered with all but very minor changes isn't doing the program. Better to select the proper program to begin with then start making big changes before you even start. Not following perscribed recovery periods in a lifting program is as much of a change as switching out 40% - 60% of the excercises.

    Another alternative would be New Rules of Lifting. It is built around two - four workouts a week (you pick how many). Excercise / Set / Rep combos are rotated through sequences that change after x many workouts. The advantage here is you could do it Saturday / Monday as Rx'd without any difficulty. I'd lean this way. I've been doing the program for 6 months 2 - 4 times a week and have been very happy.
    Last edited by Jhemsley; 3/09/2008 11:40pm at .
  6. alex is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2008 1:39am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What I do for both myself and my clients is basically single set training- for say a bench i will do a warm up set of maybe 5-6 reps with about 60% weight, then do one working set of the most i can lift til failure- once i can lift it 8 times, weight goes up. and thats it, on to the next exercise. ill usually do one push, one pull, and one leg, then maybe a few supplementary exercises. i started on this after i got frustrated with the lack of progress i was making in more traditional 5x5 or 3x8 style and never looked back. my bench went from 55 to 70kg for 6 reps in a couple of months, and i was only spending half an hour at a time in the gym- and not feeling sore the next day was a bonus too.

    this training is dangerous without a partner and even then i would not let someone train with me like this who was not a professional. to get the most out of it you have to have 100% confidence in the person spotting you
  7. prezbuluskey is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2008 4:18pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kicking Bulimia Victims

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok, lots of good info in this thread, it is heavily appreciated. I'll try to hit the gym tonight since I have nothing to do, with this workout:

    Overhead presses

    Chinups/pullups, and barbell rows

    Deadlifts

    Squats

    Followed by cardio if I have extra time, and next week I will add 1, 2, and 1 like Jhemsley said. And I'll probably throw some preachers and dips in there as well. If there is anything wrong with this any help is really appreciated. Thanks alex, jhemsley, and tehelmacho, I appreciate it.

    BTW I've been lifting since I was in seventh grade with my crappy little home gym (which I still have), but I never found an actual good workout that showed results and that I stuck with (which is probably the reason why.)
  8. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/11/2008 8:23pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by prezbuluskey
    Ok, lots of good info in this thread, it is heavily appreciated. I'll try to hit the gym tonight since I have nothing to do, with this workout:

    Overhead presses

    Chinups/pullups, and barbell rows

    Deadlifts

    Squats

    Followed by cardio if I have extra time, and next week I will add 1, 2, and 1 like Jhemsley said. And I'll probably throw some preachers and dips in there as well. If there is anything wrong with this any help is really appreciated. Thanks alex, jhemsley, and tehelmacho, I appreciate it.

    BTW I've been lifting since I was in seventh grade with my crappy little home gym (which I still have), but I never found an actual good workout that showed results and that I stuck with (which is probably the reason why.)
    I wouldn't do both Squats and Deadlifts the first time out. Either / or for a first workout is plenty. But by the same token, doing both isn't necessarily wrong - and long term you will need to anyway. I would definitely not do them back to back.

    Remember, consistency is the key. Both in performing the workout and in putting a little more weight on the bar every time.
  9. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2008 10:17pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^^^ What he said. Squats and deadlifts on the same day will drain you, specially if you are starting out or if you are trying to do both heavy. There is so much that the erector spinae (the muscles that extend the spine) and hips can take. They need at least 48 hours to recover.

    I wouldn't do cardio after a full-body workout either, maybe 5 minutes in an elyptical as a cool down and as a way to loosen up the hips and lower extremities, but that's it. Remember, this is your one day a week for weight training.

    For most of us mere mortals without exceptional genes, the colloraries for an average workout are the following:

    -- if you can do cardio at medium/hard intensity immediately after lifting, you are not lifting hard enough to reap the benefits.

    -- if you lift sufficiently hard enough, you won't be able to anything beyond a light cardio as cooldown.

    -- if you do cardio at medium/hard intensity as a warm up, you may compromise your "gas tank" for lifting hard.

    There will be days when you could break those guidelines. However, in general, regularly breaking those rules will get you overtrained, or worse, sick.

    Get your cardio from BJJ, or from a 12 minute workout at home starting with a 5 minute warm up (jumping jacks), 2-3 minutes doing some sort of HIIT (tabatas with burpees, or mountain climbers to failure) followed by a few minutes of cooling down (walking around, shadow boxing, stretching.)

    Heck, a 5-minute round of jumping jacks when time is short is a good compromise for cardio.

    Maximize your one-a-day lifting workout for lifting. Keep it simple, keep it no longer than 90 minutes, go with an agenda of what exercises you will do, in what sequence, and how many sets and reps, do a quick cooldown/stretch thereafter, and go home to get some well-deserving rest.

    It's easy to try to cramp stuff in one workout. It's a sure road to burnout and overtraining. I know from experience. It sucks. So just keep it tight and simple.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 3/11/2008 10:19pm at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  10. alex is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2008 10:27pm

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     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    90 minutes? thats pretty damn long for any weight workout in my book. id say anything over 50 minutes is getting towards the long end of things, particularly if you are doing a lot of compound stuff
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