Mark Hatmaker

**simonifrius** · Posted On: 12/12/2008 3:12pm

Yeah, i know it's old. This all gets kinda old to me. Around here, it seems the opinion is "It it ain't BJJ, it don't work." Never mind that BJJ MMAists cross-train also, or that folks like Couture and Millitech with mostly wrestling backgrounds dominate. I'm not fudging on BJJ; it works for the sport, and i've seen the Gracie videos showing it work one-on-one on the street. But it ain't all there is. The guy trained in boxing and wrestling, and tossed in some other stuff he found that works. He's not claiming to be the last grandmaster, the discoverer of insane proportions, or the champion of all. He told us what he is, and all there is here is, "OY! That doesn't work!" Just like legholds kind of fall to the wayside in most BJJ circles. I'm sorry; i don't mean to offend anyone, and i admit some of Hatmaker's stuff just doesn't work for me, but he ain't bullshido, and i KNOW from my own experimentation that some of that stuff works.
Um. Respect.

**Kentucky Fried Chokin** · Posted On: 12/12/2008 4:05pm

Originally Posted by simonifrius

Yeah, i know it's old. This all gets kinda old to me. Around here, it seems the opinion is "It it ain't BJJ, it don't work." Never mind that BJJ MMAists cross-train also, or that folks like Couture and Millitech with mostly wrestling backgrounds dominate. I'm not fudging on BJJ; it works for the sport, and i've seen the Gracie videos showing it work one-on-one on the street. But it ain't all there is. The guy trained in boxing and wrestling, and tossed in some other stuff he found that works. He's not claiming to be the last grandmaster, the discoverer of insane proportions, or the champion of all. He told us what he is, and all there is here is, "OY! That doesn't work!" Just like legholds kind of fall to the wayside in most BJJ circles. I'm sorry; i don't mean to offend anyone, and i admit some of Hatmaker's stuff just doesn't work for me, but he ain't bullshido, and i KNOW from my own experimentation that some of that stuff works.
Um. Respect.

**UpaLumpa** · Posted On: 12/12/2008 4:21pm

What a random and idiotic post.
Hatmaker shows some truly awful stuff.
I personally don't care about more than that. And it isn't about bjj versus the wide world of non-brazillian grappling, it is about reality.

Some here care about the fact that he doesn't have a verifiable training history. That's what this thread is mainly about.

**DKJr** · Posted On: 12/12/2008 4:31pm

Wut are yoo talkin about?!? BRazillyan JOO jitsoo is da best style ever. Hoyce beat everyone there for BJJ wins. Ur just ghey and don't want to gr4pp3l.

**simonifrius** · Posted On: 12/13/2008 2:19am

Originally Posted by UpaLumpa

What a random and idiotic post.
Hatmaker shows some truly awful stuff.
I personally don't care about more than that. And it isn't about bjj versus the wide world of non-brazillian grappling, it is about reality.

Some here care about the fact that he doesn't have a verifiable training history. That's what this thread is mainly about.

As to the second paragraph, the guy told you who trained him; and they probably were small-time operators in an era where the internet wasn't around. 1)_Why the heck would you be able to find them on the web? I spent months looking for a boxing club nearby, and it turns out that there's one right in town, with no website or anything that apparently links them to the web. Half the dojos in town aren't even in the phonebook. The guy's claiming boxing and wrestling, for crying out loud, just without rules. And he's not setting up an empire based on outrageous claims. What's the issue?

Secondly, referring to the first half of your statement: then don't use it! If you think it's worthless, just stay away from it, and don't think outside the box you've been given. Like i said, i use some of it, and it works for me. It just gets old to me when people throw their ego out there like that. ("Hey, i'm an expert. That could never work in something as insanely unpredictable as a fight.") If the idea's to expand on your knowledge, you gotta know what's out there. How the heck do you get to the double armbar-nelson ninja hold? I don't know. Why would you want to? I really don't know. But i ain't gonna fart on a guy (though it's possible in that move (from both positions by the looks of it)) for showing what's out there in a little $14 book that also has some good information in it. Gee, why don't i just toss out my BJJ books and videos for showing me how to do a lapel choke, since i'm never going to wear a gi in real life, and probably neither would anyone i'd tussle with? The thing that seems idiotic to me (within reason) is standing on a pedestal saying "PSHAW! That's dumb," while someone's getting their hands dirty trying to help you out. If you don't want the information, that's all you had to say.

**simonifrius** · Posted On: 12/13/2008 2:31am

Originally Posted by David Koresh Jr.

Wut are yoo talkin about?!? BRazillyan JOO jitsoo is da best style ever. Hoyce beat everyone there for BJJ wins. Ur just ghey and don't want to gr4pp3l.

Guess i forgot about Hoyce. I take it all back. Thank you, you son of a cult leader!

**MrGalt** · Posted On: 12/13/2008 4:00am

Mark did a seminar for my Shotokan class once at the University of Tennessee. He and his students all had amazing conditioning and the striking techniques looked pretty good, being as they were pugilism plus MT kicks as far as I could tell. At the time I signed up for his mailing list and it was pretty interesting since he always had great stories about old school bareknuckle boxers, wrestlers and strongmen, but then I got tired of his newest book advertising "Six Hundred and Sixty Six Calf Crushes" and "Over 9000 Ways to Pass Guard" since it always seemed to me that either that many techniques would be confusing or else he would go the Kama Sutra route and one technique would have one name and then you'd do the same technique but with one eye closed and he'd call it something else.

He strikes me as a technique collector, which I never thought was a great way to go about learning stuff, but maybe for grapplers it's different...

**UpaLumpa** · Posted On: 12/13/2008 1:50pm

Originally Posted by simonifrius

As to the second paragraph, the guy told you who trained him; and they probably were small-time operators in an era where the internet wasn't around. 1)_Why the heck would you be able to find them on the web? I spent months looking for a boxing club nearby, and it turns out that there's one right in town, with no website or anything that apparently links them to the web. Half the dojos in town aren't even in the phonebook. The guy's claiming boxing and wrestling, for crying out loud, just without rules. And he's not setting up an empire based on outrageous claims. What's the issue?

Listen douchebag, I already said I don't care and the issue was settled until you resurrected the thread. You're arguing a strawman filled with **** rather than straw.

There were questions about where he trained. They were settled. You came and bumped the thread with your idiocy.

Originally Posted by simonifrius

Secondly, referring to the first half of your statement: then don't use it! If you think it's worthless, just stay away from it, and don't think outside the box you've been given. Like i said, i use some of it, and it works for me. It just gets old to me when people throw their ego out there like that. ("Hey, i'm an expert. That could never work in something as insanely unpredictable as a fight.") If the idea's to expand on your knowledge, you gotta know what's out there. How the heck do you get to the double armbar-nelson ninja hold? I don't know. Why would you want to? I really don't know. But i ain't gonna fart on a guy (though it's possible in that move (from both positions by the looks of it)) for showing what's out there in a little $14 book that also has some good information in it. Gee, why don't i just toss out my BJJ books and videos for showing me how to do a lapel choke, since i'm never going to wear a gi in real life, and probably neither would anyone i'd tussle with? The thing that seems idiotic to me (within reason) is standing on a pedestal saying "PSHAW! That's dumb," while someone's getting their hands dirty trying to help you out. If you don't want the information, that's all you had to say.

You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm happy to try new things and tried (and tried again when the thread was bumped) some of the more absurd things Hatmaker shows.

Much of what he shows is opportunistic in nature, and that's fine. Doesn't mean it is something to structure your game around though.

Aw **** it:
Shut the hell up.

**simonifrius** · Posted On: 12/13/2008 11:51pm

Originally Posted by UpaLumpa

Listen douchebag, I already said I don't care and the issue was settled until you resurrected the thread. You're arguing a strawman filled with **** rather than straw.

There were questions about where he trained. They were settled. You came and bumped the thread with your idiocy.

You have no idea what you're talking about. I'm happy to try new things and tried (and tried again when the thread was bumped) some of the more absurd things Hatmaker shows.

Much of what he shows is opportunistic in nature, and that's fine. Doesn't mean it is something to structure your game around though.

Aw **** it:
Shut the hell up.

Douchebag?:crybaby2:
Anyway, sorry i ruffled your feathers, fella.
So-
But-
Aw, whatever. You ain't listening.

Stupid ninja move: Get in the backriding position, overhooking both arms, but the guy escapes your guard, and you're unable to clasp hands because he's hip-heisting away. Knee-to-back, chickenwing, stepover, cross other leg, lean back, look at camera and smile.
Try that, if you're still curious.

**ben1g** · Posted On: 12/14/2008 4:30am

UpaLumpa, as you've already stated that your criteria for verifiable is whether or not it comes up on the first page of a google search, you should perhaps be a little less vitriolic. I'd say it's entirely feasible for an ageing high school/college level wrestling coach in a small town 25 years ago would not have a web presence.